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  #16  
Old 06-04-2018, 12:45 AM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
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It’s a challenge, but makes all the difference. I think that most of what has been said here will help - for me the keys are finding a song that really moves me and I love to hear, making sure it is not above my ability level and is one I can master technically quite quickly and then finding a great version I can listen to (and then listen to it a LOT :-) You need to be focusing on the dynamics of the piece above all else. There’s a great YouTube video of Ed Gerhard talking about playing the water is wide which I found really helpful in moving forwards with this. Good luck..
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  #17  
Old 06-04-2018, 05:13 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakybird View Post
Brett Manning of Singing Success and vocal coach to the stars, has said that singing is crying on pitch.
That explains why so many contemporary pop singers have the same irritating mannerisms (as if they've taken his advice too literally).

(OK, I'm an old guy, ignore me.... )
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  #18  
Old 06-04-2018, 06:59 AM
Beakybird Beakybird is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
That explains why so many contemporary pop singers have the same irritating mannerisms (as if they've taken his advice too literally).

(OK, I'm an old guy, ignore me.... )
It's because of great vocal coaches that so many singers these days can hit the high notes flawlessly.

I think that if they were to put your favorite 70's singer's voice through auto-tune and then replace the real instruments with synthesizers, quantize the rhythm, and then apply post production processing, you might not connect to the singer's voice.
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  #19  
Old 06-04-2018, 07:45 AM
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KevWind KevWind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
As already said, know the piece of music well so you can use your thoughts on expression rather than on just finding the right notes. Think in musical phrases
and the goal you want to achieve for each phrase, and perhaps the piece over all.
How much you do of what does depends on the style of music and the particular piece.
This !!! the importance of knowing the music cannot be overstressed

Particularly when first starting to record, because at first and for a good while, the recording process for some reason adds another level of stress

Chris Proctor was at a Taylor dealer demo years ago ( precursor to their "Roadshow series ) and said something that has stuck with me ever since .

"Amateurs practice until the get it right. Pros practice until they can't get it wrong"

Once the tune becomes committed to muscle memory, then you can focus on how it makes you feel and how to convey that.
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  #20  
Old 06-04-2018, 08:53 AM
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When you get to the point of not being able to stand the tune any longer or you play it through real fast because you are bored with it, take a extended brake from it. When you find you want to play it again you will also find your voice in the song.
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  #21  
Old 06-04-2018, 12:47 PM
creamburmese creamburmese is offline
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In response to the OP - for something specific to try - if you can identify the phrases in the pieces:

- first have each phrase start quiet, build to get louder towards the middle of the phrase then get quieter again to the end

- "wind down' a little in tempo at the end of phrases, maybe even adding a short pause before the next phrase

And singing the melody can often clue you in to other specific variations in tempo or dynamics that would sound good...

Best of luck!
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  #22  
Old 06-04-2018, 12:49 PM
jojobean39 jojobean39 is offline
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Victor Wooten has an incredible DVD called Groove Workshop. It’s done using the bass guitar, but it’s hardly geared towards one instrument. I saw him do the clinic in a live setting and bought the DVD and made two worship teams that I played for watch it. If you want to learn about feel and the role of your instrument in what you’re playing, check out this DVD.

One of the most brilliant illustrations he does is to have his accompanying musician play a progression in the key of C. Victor then plays a solo of poor taste using all the notes in the key of C. He follows that up by playing a solo using ONLY sharps and flats. But he plays it with feeling and good timing. It clearly sounded better to nearly everyone there- despite not using a single “right” note.

He used it to illustrate the point about how much we dwell on the notes we play, when that’s so little of what makes someone good.

Another example is that he has one of the students do a freestyle solo. The guy was good- did some lightning fast runs, but it was a bit showy. Then, he made him do a solo while singing the part. He slowed down and the expressive nature of his playing came out. I thought this illustrated well how when people play that it’s often pleasing to hear “vocal” like melodies, as opposed to just ripping notes out at blazing speeds.

I can not recommend that DVD enough.
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  #23  
Old 06-04-2018, 12:58 PM
Rocky Dijohn Rocky Dijohn is offline
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Thanks to everyone who contributed. These are all great suggestions.
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  #24  
Old 06-04-2018, 01:01 PM
jojobean39 jojobean39 is offline
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Here is a preview to his DVD:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qJHkGWwu3vY#

And, I’m not affiliated or anything. It’s just one thing that changed my view on how I played more than anything in 25+ years of playing. I don’t love all of his music, but the guy can teach VERY well. He’s extraordinary.
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  #25  
Old 06-04-2018, 06:38 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Dr John had a prescription for this:

https://youtu.be/tTMWNWrE3Uc
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  #26  
Old 06-08-2018, 07:07 PM
Pitar Pitar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky Dijohn View Post
Can this even be taught? I taped myself years ago attempting to play some celtic O'Carolan arrangements by El McMeen and I quit playing in disgust at how mechanical and rote I sounded. I am coming off a long layoff and wondering how to get to a better level. I have never worked with a metronome either so advice on that is welcome.
Two mechanical things -

1. A skill set that will allow you to spontaneously changes style, technique, dynamics and even scale.

2. Total confidence in your knowledge of the melodies beyond the scores or tabs to the extent that your fret board knowledge (1, above) gives you a palette of tonal color to also use with spontaneity.

Those are the tools. How you manage them cannot be instructed. That comes from within you. It's called your muse.
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  #27  
Old 06-09-2018, 12:19 AM
StevenL StevenL is offline
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Read some good poetry or some stories with happy or sad endings...to help get your feelings stirred and maybe spark some metaphysical energy and metaphorical thinking. Meditate on things that make your heart react strongly. Practice 'feeling' things as well as thinking about them. Good or bad.

May sound stupid. Just thinking out loud.
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  #28  
Old 06-18-2018, 10:33 PM
JMW01 JMW01 is offline
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From the movie Shine:

PARKES
Don't forget, it's on the page.

David
Well yes, the notes are, but not the feeling, the emotions
which is what I feel.

PARKES
You mustn't sacrifice everything to emotion. It's a
question of balance.

David
Is that the question, Professor?

PARKES
Precisely.

David
I thought so.
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  #29  
Old 06-18-2018, 11:41 PM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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It's hard to know for sure what the issue is, without hearing you, but in general, I think it can be hard to play someone else's tunes note-for-note and capture the feeling. El, for example, doesn't really play most of his tunes the same way twice - he's often half-improvising. He knows the melody and can play it in different places, and varies his playing a lot. Any given recording is just how he played it that day.

Trying to capture what he's doing note-for-note can be quite a challenge - and is actually harder than what El's doing, for example. To play someone else's tune with feeling, I think you have to "get the music off the page", not being thinking about the notes, or even worrying about whether you're playing it "right" (the way the original player did it), and do it your own way. When you really know the melody (especially true with pieces like El's that are always melodic), and hear it in your head the way a singer might, and play it your own way, without that nagging voice that is telling you you're not matching the original arrangement, you can start to have some feeling.

OH, BTW, El's also big on rubato - Rick pointed this out with some detail. It's not that he necessarily speeds up/slows down the overall meter, but he can be pretty free with the time, pushing and pulling notes in time - I think this comes with a focus on the melody, and the fact that he's rarely playing any kind of groove (like alternating bass). When you sing a song, you don't land square on every quarter-note, etc, you naturally slip and slide in time, which creates a feel. But it would be hard to match anyone else's precise choices with this sort of thing - you have to create your own feel.

Last edited by Doug Young; 06-19-2018 at 12:55 AM.
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