Us

[Fixedgear60]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Hi Tom,

In fact I have tried just about every make and model of CF guitar out there, and while most have a signature tone that is a byproduct of their shape and size, Blackbird designs their guitars based on the tone they are looking for, so their shape and size are the byproduct of the tone. Does that make sense? The new Ekoa models are a perfect example of this. To achieve the new tone they were looking for, they not only came up with a new shape an size, but they also went to a new material.

Hi Ted,

Could not agree with you more on the cost factor for r&d and capital costs. Also lets not for get the labor costs which reduces the volume and ability to recoup these costs. The layering and finishing of these materials...sometimes poisonous...ie cf or in case of ekoa which has 3 to 4 times more parts than wood guitars is quite complicated. I am surprised of the availability, diversity of design and the reasonable costs that we do receive from these vendors.

[sirwhale]

Originally Posted by Fixedgear60

Hi Ted,

Could not agree with you more on the cost factor for r&d and capital costs. Also lets not for get the labor costs which reduces the volume and ability to recoup these costs. The layering and finishing of these materials...sometimes poisonous...ie cf or in case of ekoa which has 3 to 4 more parts than wood guitars is quite complicated. I am surprised of the availability, diversity of design and the reasonable costs that we do receive from these vendors.

If I had the money, I'd buy the Super OM and El Capitan. But I should be, and I am, happy with just one Blackbird. This forum is a dangerous place.

[Gorquin]

I tend to be practical. Bottom line for me is sound and then obviously price point.

I've only played a few Rainsong guitars and thought they sounded like garbage. I have on the flip side seen some vids of CF guitars that sounded pretty good. But, my practical side says…..why would I spend 100, 200, 300, % more for a CF guitar than for a wood guitar?

The scarcity factor? Remember when us Baby Boomers pass on not all of our offspring, siblings, relatives play music and those instruments will be recycled. And don't Baby Boomers make up the largest % of the population?

Another thought…..If you can build a good/great sounding guitar from CF (but it costs a lot) why hasn't anyone, Or have they, built guitars from Bamboo which grows very fast, is inexpensive compared to CF and is environmentally sound?

JMHO

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by Gorquin

I've only played a few Rainsong guitars and thought they sounded like garbage...

Now why would you do that? Come right to the sub forum and just blatantly dis a brand and every consumer and dealer supporting it? However, I think your opinion is valid and genuine- in other words, you're not trolling for a reaction.

Not only is RainSong the pioneer in CF guitar building (I may stand corrected as Emerald started close to the same time?), but they have sold thousands of their creations at exactly the price point that befuddles you.

Don't write off CF just yet, you've already admitted curiosity-maybe it's just a matter of time! 😉

[sirwhale]

Originally Posted by Gorquin

I tend to be practical. Bottom line for me is sound and then obviously price point.

I've only played a few Rainsong guitars and thought they sounded like garbage. I have on the flip side seen some vids of CF guitars that sounded pretty good. But, my practical side says…..why would I spend 100, 200, 300, % more for a CF guitar than for a wood guitar?

The scarcity factor? Remember when us Baby Boomers pass on not all of our offspring, siblings, relatives play music and those instruments will be recycled. And don't Baby Boomers make up the largest % of the population?

Another thought…..If you can build a good/great sounding guitar from CF (but it costs a lot) why hasn't anyone, Or have they, built guitars from Bamboo which grows very fast, is inexpensive compared to CF and is environmentally sound?

JMHO

When I read this I just think, here's a bloke with strong opinions on a topic which is largely unknown to him.

The carbon fibre guitars being made now are great guitars and are not very expensive, especially compared to Martin models etc.

I'm not sure I understand your comparison to bamboo. If someone wants to make a guitar out of CF, then they want to make it out of CF. Bamboo is not a natural version of CF, they are very different. If someone made a great guitar out of bamboo, would you find it strange if someone asked them why they don't make a guitar out of CF?

CF allows for a lot of customization through moulding too.

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by Gorquin

I tend to be practical. Bottom line for me is sound and then obviously price point.

I've only played a few Rainsong guitars and thought they sounded like garbage. I have on the flip side seen some vids of CF guitars that sounded pretty good. But, my practical side says…..why would I spend 100, 200, 300, % more for a CF guitar than for a wood guitar?

The scarcity factor? Remember when us Baby Boomers pass on not all of our offspring, siblings, relatives play music and those instruments will be recycled. And don't Baby Boomers make up the largest % of the population?

Another thought…..If you can build a good/great sounding guitar from CF (but it costs a lot) why hasn't anyone, Or have they, built guitars from Bamboo which grows very fast, is inexpensive compared to CF and is environmentally sound?

JMHO

With all respect, your perspectives are skewed...300% more? No, when compared to wood guitars of equal quality, CFs are comparably priced. Recycled? No. Really? Bamboo? Another medium, who says no one has or is trying.

The fact that you have perused the CF forum, let-alone bothered to post, suggests that you at least have a passing interest. If you bother to investigate further and longer, like so many naysayers before you, you will likely find that the world of CF guitars is fascinating. Quality, playability, design, tone and pricing among the major builders make CFs serious instruments worthy in anybody's collection.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Gorquin

I tend to be practical. Bottom line for me is sound and then obviously price point.

I've only played a few Rainsong guitars and thought they sounded like garbage. I have on the flip side seen some vids of CF guitars that sounded pretty good. But, my practical side says…..why would I spend 100, 200, 300, % more for a CF guitar than for a wood guitar?

The scarcity factor? Remember when us Baby Boomers pass on not all of our offspring, siblings, relatives play music and those instruments will be recycled. And don't Baby Boomers make up the largest % of the population?

Another thought…..If you can build a good/great sounding guitar from CF (but it costs a lot) why hasn't anyone, Or have they, built guitars from Bamboo which grows very fast, is inexpensive compared to CF and is environmentally sound?

JMHO

Frankly, your comment is based on ignorance of everything you've touched on and you should have refrained from posting until you've educated yourself on these matters.

[JerryM]

Hey all, until a week or so ago I never even saw a carbon guitar, never played one ever, no where here in Hicksville sells them and most when I asked even knew what I was talking about. Most music stores carry Chinese wood guitars of various makes and a few Taylors here and there. So I was jumping in strictly on what I had read and could find on You Tube etc.
I play as my main guitar one of the finest made..IMO and I am totally blown away by the guitar Ted sent me.
I chose the Blackbird based on Ted's opinion that it sounded the closest to wood, and the size is almost exactly OO which is my favorite. I figured the worst case I would be out some shipping cost but it would be worth it to experience something new, I had 72hrs. to try it.
Ted's not getting it back! I really like this guitar. My friends and my wife I have played it for all agree the tone is great. There is no tinny or bright tone here, it has bass to spare, while it has a distinct tone similar but different than my wood guitars. The harmonics are absolutely awesome and intonation is as close to perfect as possible.
The only modification I made was lowering the action a bit by cutting down the saddle height which was quite high. As I did so I began to wonder about neck relief as there is no truss rod.I got out my straight edge and gauges and found it has relief built in,,,very clever, so even though I have 5/64" action on the 12th fret now no buzzy" no problem, plays like a dream. I have it set up with 12/53 coated strings. I will try some different ones as time goes by to see if I find something I like better.
Until I read this thread and Ted's comments I was not aware of the cost in producing one of these guitars. Like I said I just jumped in and went for it. But I must say i am glad I did. It sits on its stand in my music room, and I grab it just to noodle all the time it's really convenient not needing to case all the time.
The other great thing is I can use my NeckUp on the guitar and the suction cup has had NO effect on the finish. My wood Martin reacted in less than a day to the cup and I can't use it on wood, the vinyl softens the nitro.
Anyway wanted to throw my 2 cents worth, well maybe a nickel, but I am excited about the future for these guitars. I can just imagine in a few more years the magic they will build into them.........

Gorquin;

Pretty good stuff-you certainly got everyone going. At first I was offended, but then, after thinking (something I sometimes do) I realized that you sounded a lot like me when I was younger. This is not an insult, it's just my way of telling you that I understand your position.

When I was young, I could only afford cheap guitars. I became quite the expert in cheap guitars. Some of them were marvelous, and I've always felt that a good player could pick up a piece of garbage and make it sound good--think of all those blues players with cheap Sears guitars.

But then, as I began to reap the benefits of my hard work, I began reaching for the better wooden guitars. For example, my brother-in-law, for whom money is no object, has a marvelous Ramirez. As my education in the fine art of luthery continued I played through Martin, Taylor, and other fine instrument makers.

And then I started to realize the cost of fineness in wooden guitars. The better the guitar, the more fragile the guitar. A friend of mine in my village bought a new Martin, went to the beach and played his butt off; and then he went to the mountains and played his butt off--and when he got home the face was cracked.

It was right about then that I discovered carbon fiber guitars. You are right in that I could buy several wooden guitars for the price of a good CF instrument. But the CF guitar gives me some things I never had with wooden guitars.

For example, the CF guitars are stable. Wood is an incredibly medium. I worked wood for 40 years of my life (google BlythinArt.com) and while I love it, I found that the same model wooden guitar will sound different from one guitar to another. I also found that the better the wooden guitar, the more work it took--humidity control, caution in changed venues, and so forth.

And so, I converted to CF. If you cruise through this forum site you will see that most of the players come here from Martin and Taylor origins. And if you listen to their music you will hear sweet sounds.

If I were you, I'd take a breath, take my time, and start looking at 21st century luthery.

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Gorquin

I tend to be practical. Bottom line for me is sound and then obviously price point.

I've only played a few Rainsong guitars and thought they sounded like garbage. I have on the flip side seen some vids of CF guitars that sounded pretty good. But, my practical side says…..why would I spend 100, 200, 300, % more for a CF guitar than for a wood guitar?

...

JMHO

This kind of post isn't unusual on this subforum. Stick around long enough and you will see it again. The names and exact derogatory references may change, but the intent is the same: someone who doesn't understand what carbon fiber brings to the table and is unaware of the costs to produce and market.

Or, as has also been said before: that which we do not understand, we must fear and ridicule.

I'm kinda new at this whole guitar thing - only been playing for a bit over 50 years. I spent a lot of years playing electric, and it took me a while to warm up to acoustic. I was also leery of carbon fiber guitars when I first heard about them... but, open-minded enough to appreciate the fact that forward-thinking people have improved sailing, flying, and a host of other things through the use of carbon fiber.

The first carbon fiber guitar I played was a RainSong, and I was very impressed. "Sounds like garbage"... I can't imagine anyone with an open-mind saying that. That first one I played, and each one since, has had great tone, sustain, and intonation.

It was still a bit of a leap of faith ordering that (my) first CF guitar from Ted, but that RainSong Shorty delighted me from the first strum and has continued to do so.

Better understanding how they are produced, I also understand why carbon fiber guitars sell for what they do.

Many of us here turned to carbon fiber for the resistance to changing humidty/weather... and discovered that these guitars have their own great sound... just like the difference between spruce and mahogany.

There will always be people who will say that any guitar over $xxx (fill in the blank for your particular budget) isn't worth it, and their $200 guitar sounds better than any $2000 guitar they've ever played. I find that is generally ignorance or lack of funds talking... and I mean no disrespect with that statement, since I have been in that situation.

If you don't like the tone of a particular guitar, then you don't like the tone. Regardless of the price. But, consider what it would be worth if Martin or Taylor advertised, "We have developed a wood finishing technique that will eliminate all your concerns about your fine wood guitar with regard to humidity/weather/climate. Imagine never having to humidity a guitar again!" Would you be willing to pay more for the guitar that has this magic finishing than one that doesn't have it?

I just bought my second CF guitar, and certainly don't consider myself an expert. BUT, I haven't played one, yet, that "sounded like garbage." As a matter of fact, I have been impressed with all the CF guitars I've had the opportunity to play. Oh, some have had the action a bit higher than I might prefer, or may have had a tone that wasn't what I was looking for; but a set up and different strings can make a real difference. Just like with wood guitars.

Don't get me wrong - I like and own wood guitars, too. But, I do see the limitations. I also see that future guitar purchases that I might make are more likely to be CF than wood.

I don't try to "convert" anyone. We all have different tastes. I appreciate the variety in the guitars I own, wood and carbon fiber. I wouldn't call another person's choice "garbage"... comments like that seem to tell more about the person making them than the guitar. It is hard to judge the sound of a guitar when your mind is closed.

[SpruceTop]

Regarding the cost of carbon fiber guitars, I think many players, out of ignorance or lack of interest, just assume that carbon-fiber is some super-exotic and ultra-expensive material that elevates the prices of carbon guitars into the stratosphere. An examination of prices, however, reveals that an all-carbon RainSong WS1000N2 is MAP-priced at about $2350 which is about the same as a Taylor 514ce. Of course, depending on the dealer, both guitars can be acquired for considerably less than MAP-price. Therefore, I'd make the argument that carbon guitars, in general, are now, and have been for some time, competively-priced within the mid-price-range of American-made, all-solid-wood, high-quality guitars.

[Gorquin]

First of thank you for the well intended reference calling me ignorant when expressing an opinion you disagree with. I didn't say any of you spoke out of ignorance because you like and/or own a CF guitar.

If some of you actually understood what I said…I did NOT condemn all CF guitars. I said I played a few Rainsong guitars that I, ME, A subjective person just like YOU, thought sounded like garbage. If that offends someone ….sorry. I am entitled to an opinion. Perhaps they were low end guitars? Either way it shouldn't matter. One can find people on AG who don't like Martin, Taylor or some other brand.

No one has to agree with me. In my "opinion" I don't see the logic of spending $4K-$5K on a CF when I can, IN MY OPINION, get the sound I want from a guitar made out of wood for much less. I'm not telling, and didn't tell, anyone else not to buy one. Some said I should refrain from posting until I get educated on the subject. Right…you mean until I agree with you. Talk about elitism.

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by Gorquin

First of thank you for the well intended reference calling me ignorant when expressing an opinion you disagree with. I didn't say any of you spoke out of ignorance because you like and/or own a CF guitar.

If some of you actually understood what I said…I did NOT condemn all CF guitars. I said I played a few Rainsong guitars that I, ME, A subjective person just like YOU, thought sounded like garbage. If that offends someone ….sorry. I am entitled to an opinion. Perhaps they were low end guitars? Either way it shouldn't matter. One can find people on AG who don't like Martin, Taylor or some other brand.

No one has to agree with me. In my "opinion" I don't see the logic of spending $4K-$5K on a CF when I can, IN MY OPINION, get the sound I want from a guitar made out of wood for much less. I'm not telling, and didn't tell, anyone else not to buy one. Some said I should refrain from posting until I get educated on the subject. Right…you mean until I agree with you. Talk about elitism.

I suppose you can spend $4-5k on a CF guitar, and much more or less on a high quality wood guitar. You may have owned Rainsongs in the past, but I don't know where you're getting your current CF pricing. CF enthusiasts here will attest that most high quality CF guitars are had for much less...anywhere from around $1,200 (for travel size) to $2,800 (some are more, but very few in the range you state) for some pretty sophisticated, quality instruments, with some upcharge for custom options. A little reading of relevant threads will indicate why CF can be more expensive as a build medium than wood, yet the pricing is VERY competitive for what you get. It's not our fault if your initial post, which expressed a limited view of one brand and inaccurate pricing may have lead to suggestions of researching further.

[sirwhale]

Originally Posted by Gorquin

If that offends someone ….sorry. I am entitled to an opinion. ... Talk about elitism.

You are entitled to an opinion, but you must learn how to express it with more tact and with more emotional awareness. This is of course an area for people who like CF.

[Earl49]

I concur, Sirwhale and Acousticado. This is yet another volunteer for my "ignore" list. Life is just too short.......