Explain Why CF Guitars Don't Need a Truss Rod - Page 3

Doubleneck · #31 01-31-2012, 05:33 PM

I suspect your CA just had a less than perfect neck angle or unleveled fretboard, and that was the majority of the problem. No question a truss rod can help you get out of issues but if the carbon guitar is made really right there is probably little need for one.
Steve

rwskaggs · #32 01-31-2012, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

I suspect your CA just had a less than perfect neck angle or unleveled fretboard, and that was the majority of the problem. No question a truss rod can help you get out of issues but if the carbon guitar is made really right there is probably little need for one.
Steve

I guess that's the point. Many of us (me, especially) don't live near stocking dealer of CF guitars. How many factory-produced wood guitars come via the Internet with satisfactory setup & neck relief for all strings useable on it?

If I have a guitar with a perfect setup, relief, level frets, good intonation (be it wood or carbon), and I change strings and the resulting tension, does the wood guitar remain unchanged or does the relief then follow the neck tension?

My CF Rainsong follows the neck tension. If I put super light strings on it when it's been set up for bluegrass, it will buzz. I guess I could have nuts & saddles made for each set of strings I might want to try, but since the relief is where the buzzing "up the neck" comes from, I want to be able to change it accordingly. I like to tinker!

Different strokes...etc.

Doubleneck · #33 02-01-2012, 06:22 AM

Don't disagree a truss rod in a CF is a positive and would opt for one if possible for the reasons you say. I have one in my Rainsong OM and I admit that I tweaked it. I do think lack of truss rod is blamed for other issues that are not right. My personal CA shows me that it is not necessary and I would not hesitate buying it again. Steve

jonfields45 · #34 02-03-2012, 04:20 PM

One of the three CA's I used to own had almost .015" (I only had .010 & .015 feeler gauges at the time) of relief with light (12s) strings along with a less than ideal neck angle. If I attempted to take the action to 3 & 2, 32nds (low/high E, 12th fret), the fret board extension (cut away) was completely useless and almost all the notes would fret out (particularly bad on the high E and B strings, the ones I actually use up there...). I made the mistake of trying to live with the guitar and not adjusting the action until it was not possible to return it. A truss rod would not have made the neck angle more ideal, but I do think that guitar would have been set-up-able, not perfect, but at least good enough, with one. The neck flattened out when the strings were loosened and it was clearly under built. Maybe with a bit more production experience and quality control it won't happen at Peavey, but a truss rod is a requirement for any guitar I'll buy. Jon

mchalebk · #35 02-03-2012, 05:05 PM

Jon, once again, though, you prove the point that the guitar needs to be built correctly. Your guitar didn't need a truss rod, it needed to be manufactured properly. A true rod would have made it "not as bad", but would not have corrected the issues.

Obviously, everyone can (and should) make their own decisions about what they need on their guitars. However, if the guitar had been built with proper relief and neck angle, the truss rod would not have been "needed" (for the vast majority of players).

rwskaggs · #36 02-03-2012, 06:29 PM

[QUOTE=mchalebk;2922652]Jon, once again, though, you prove the point that the guitar needs to be built correctly. Your guitar didn't need a truss rod, it needed to be manufactured properly. A true rod would have made it "not as bad", but would not have corrected the issues.

Obviously, everyone can (and should) make their own decisions about what they need on their guitars. However, if the guitar had been built with proper relief and neck angle, the truss rod would not have been "needed" (for the vast majority of players).[/QUOTE]

Precisely. Back to the factory-standard variability that prompted the OP's question. Factories don't produce ideal setups - only individual luthier/builders can offer that guarantee, and only if they work with the musician and their playing style. I'd like the 'insurance' a less-than-boutique guitar allows me with personal adjustments like a truss rod, to make the setup liveable when ordering sight-unseen. All of us would love to cherry-pick our babies - sometimes they come complete with colic from the UPS driver.....

jonfields45 · #37 02-04-2012, 09:21 AM

I agree with Brian, but still like the insurance of a truss rod. I have a starry eye honey moon issue with new guitars and the truss rod is handy when it wears off :~).

With CF it should be possible to make a neck so stiff that the relief is constant (with or without strings, regardless of string gauge), and in that case no truss rod would make sense. My N2 RainSongs might have been that good. Next time I change strings on my CO-DR I'll check to see if the relief remains with no string tension. Jon

leeasam · #38 02-06-2012, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

I suspect your CA just had a less than perfect neck angle or unleveled fretboard, and that was the majority of the problem. No question a truss rod can help you get out of issues but if the carbon guitar is made really right there is probably little need for one.
Steve

well true to a point but when I went to medium strings it was said that the releif on these would NOT change. Which it DOES and DID. a truss rod could have helped this.

Myt action was just to high. to lower it at saddle I would need for MY style a tad more relief to keep from buzzing strings at lower frets. Not a neck angle issue but a too straight issue. If I were to use a really light touch and attack no buzzing. I know it has been said some fret buzzing with low action is normal but I was just trying to get down to what is considered standard action wich was .092" low E. It was way above that and when I sanded the saddle to get to that point it would buzz at lower frets unless you played with a light attack. so I was going to try mediums as they do not oscillate as much but then the neck relief was pulled ALOT to way to much relief.

When I bought my Taylor it had a tiny bit of buzz when I played it. Neck was pretty much straight. I just loosened the truss rod a tad until it played buzz or rattle free. that is MY sweet spot.

A guitar with out the ability to adjust that just makes one need to adjust attack-- Which I could have done but then the guitar was too quiet for volume and does not allow for expression.

Klef · #39 03-11-2012, 12:00 PM

You need one. I don't mess with them often, but you need a truss rod if you're going to use the guitar for any length of time. CF is about long term durability. So long term adjustability is a must.

mchalebk · #40 03-11-2012, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klef

You need one. I don't mess with them often, but you need a truss rod if you're going to use the guitar for any length of time. CF is about long term durability. So long term adjustability is a must.

I don't quite get what point you're trying to make. CF guitars don't change their geometry over time, so having the guitar for a long time makes no difference. If a CF guitar is built with proper relief, it will maintain that for its entire life (assuming the guitar isn't damaged), so no need to ever adjust it.

The only reason a guitar needs a truss rod is to adjust relief. Wood guitars need one because they can't maintain stability for long periods of time. CF guitars can, so don't really need them (as long as they're manufactured with proper relief).

Once again, this is a personal thing. Some players may prefer a relief setting outside what would be considered normal, so they would need a truss rod. Other players just don't like the idea that they can't make this adjustment, so they feel they need one. However, in just about every case I've read about where a player said a CF guitar they owned would have been better off with a truss rod, it was a situation where the guitar wasn't manufactured properly. In these cases, a truss rod would have made it possible to minimize the issues with the guitars, but the fact is that the guitars were not manufactured correctly.

Klef · #41 03-11-2012, 02:37 PM

I'm not a guitar engineer, but I don't buy into the specification that the geometry will never change over time. I don't have a study contrary to the manufacturing ideal or anything like that.

mchalebk · #42 03-11-2012, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klef

I'm not a guitar engineer, but I don't buy into the specification that the geometry will never change over time. I don't have a study contrary to the manufacturing ideal or anything like that.

Certainly everyone has to decide for themselves what they need in a guitar. However, you made some pretty strong statements about how you "need a truss rod if you're going to use the guitar for any length of time". There were no qualifiers such as "in my opinion" or "I am concerned about the long term". You simply stated that "You need one."

If you don't have any information that indicates that a CF guitar's geometry changes with time, it would seem that you should be more careful about how strongly you state your opinions. Your statement made it seem like you came from a background of knowledge or experience. However, it appears that your opinion stems from personal concerns, not from experience or research.

I have been studying CF guitars pretty closely since 2005. I own several of them and have never had any indication that the geometry changes with time. Furthermore, I've never read any case where a CF guitar that had proper relief changed with time and developed an issue. In fact, just about everyone seems to agree that the geometry does not change with time and I have never read about a single instance that would contradict that. If you have contrasting information, please share it (though I'm pretty sure you already indicated that you don't).

Certainly, CF guitars haven't been around for decades and we can't know for sure. So, if you want to make sure you can adjust relief "just in case", hold out for a truss rod. However, I don't believe you're doing anyone any favors by stating that "you need one" without any facts, data or other hard facts to back up your opinion. As far as I have been able to ascertain, it is simply not true that a CF guitar needs a truss rod.

denny1948golf · #43 03-12-2012, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mchalebk

Once again, this is a personal thing. Some players may prefer a relief setting outside what would be considered normal, so they would need a truss rod

Your above statement is EXACTLY why a truss rod should be on every guitar, CF or otherwise. Relief "is" a personal preference. Who is to say what my guitar should have as far as relief other than myself. What you consider as normal may be far from my normal. Relief is part of the equation for feel and what any given player considers to be what they are looking for in the playabiity of any guitar. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Doubleneck · #44 03-13-2012, 05:31 AM

Your statement is why a truss rod should be on your carbon guitar and not necessarily for the other 95% of us. Why would anyone want to dictate what is on another persons guitar? Go for a carbon with a truss rod by all means. But there is nothing wrong with a guitar company marketing to 95% of the market?
Steve

mchalebk · #45 03-13-2012, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by denny1948golf

Your above statement is EXACTLY why a truss rod should be on every guitar, CF or otherwise. Relief "is" a personal preference. Who is to say what my guitar should have as far as relief other than myself. What you consider as normal may be far from my normal. Relief is part of the equation for feel and what any given player considers to be what they are looking for in the playability of any guitar. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

I can’t agree with this. The vast majority of players would be happy with a standard relief setting. Adjustments at the saddle and nut provide most guitarists with the range of action that they require if relief is set properly. Adjusting relief (once again for most players) is only necessary when it is set outside of normal parameters. If set properly at the factory, a CF guitar should never have to have its relief adjusted for the vast majority of players.

However, I’m not going to tell you that you don’t need a truss rod in your guitar. Feeling the way you do, you should insist on one. Just don’t try to say that I need to have one in my guitar; I don’t.

It’s worth pointing out that composite construction provides unique opportunities to the builder. For instance, the Blackbird designs, with the hollow neck and headstock soundhole, would be impossible if they needed a truss rod.

So, no, all CF guitars should not have a truss rod. And, yes, those that don't will not be considered for purchase by people who feel as you do.