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  #91  
Old 08-11-2016, 06:19 PM
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Tom 2;

I am almost embarrassed to admit this, but I eat mm's. Could you cast those measurements in U.S? I could figure it out, but I'd have to work at it and I am at an age where I am conserving as much energy as possible.

Glad to see you are still here, helping Rob produce the best nylon string guitar possible. Seems like he should be getting to it by now.
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  #92  
Old 08-13-2016, 05:32 PM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
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Converting mm to decimal inches is easy (mm/25.4). Converting decimal inches to fractional inches is why the rest of the world (including U.S. educated scientists and engineers) use metric. Guitar dimensions at the nut require three decimal places of accuracy for inches, and one decimal place of accuracy for mm.

At the nut:
Neck width:
48.5mm = 1.909"
48.0mm = 1.890"
1 7/8" = 1.875"
Individual string spacing:
8.0mm = 0.315"
8.1mm = 0.319"
8.2mm = 0.323"
8.3mm = 0.327"
Total string spacing:
40.0mm = 1.575"
40.5mm = 1.594"
41.0mm = 1.614"
41.5mm = 1.634"
Fretboard edge gap:
3.5mm = 0.138"

Convert to fractions at your own peril.
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  #93  
Old 08-14-2016, 03:19 PM
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Tom2;

I have been fascinated by this forum thread's discussion of Journey's possible nylon string guitar. Your input has been the most detailed and it will be interesting to see how Rob and crew handle it all. Somewhere along the line they will have to act and I am looking forward to their creation. They spent a lot of time in their development of a steel carbon fiber guitar and I think the challenge becomes even more difficult with a nylon strung instrument.
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  #94  
Old 08-14-2016, 07:21 PM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
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As I research guitar specs, most manufacturers don't publish neck width at the 12th fret. For steel strings, this isn't much of an issue because the high tension and low action of steel keep string position fairly stable throughout the neck. For classicals, it's also not an issue because they simply give the neck whatever space is necessary, without constraint.

Crossovers are, by definition, classicals with neck width constraints, so every detail must be addressed. This means designing for a specific neck width at both the nut and 12th fret, and string spacing at both the nut and saddle, with the interplay being much more critical than with a classical or a steel string guitar. For example:

I am enjoying my new 41.5mm string spacing at the nut, and will probably expand string spacing at the saddle from 55mm to 55.5mm. This will produce a string spacing of 48.5mm at the 12th fret. For this configuration, my experiments have revealed a minimum necessary neck width of 48.5mm at the nut and 58mm at the 12th fret.

If someone builds a guitar with a 48.5mm nut width, but a neck that is only 57.5mm at the 12th fret, I can't use a 41.5mm string spacing at the nut because high E string slippage beyond the 5th fret is an issue. This means that maximum desired string spacing at the nut must be taken into consideration when selecting neck width at the 12th fret. Classicals don't have this issue because they typically have a 62mm or 63mm neck width at the 12th fret. Reducing neck width by 4mm at both the nut and 12th fret requires extreme attention to detail in order to provide a "no compromise" playing experience. For me, when playing is compromised, it isn't playing any more.
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  #95  
Old 08-14-2016, 07:49 PM
robailey robailey is offline
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Hey gang,

We're still listening - and we think in mm too so this is very helpful data.

Rob
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  #96  
Old 08-14-2016, 08:02 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Appropo of very little, in mechanical engineering school (1978-1982) everything academic was done in metric. I was fully comfortable and fluent in metric units for everything. But my entire career since has been almost purely Imperial units.

I wish the US would just convert to metric and be done with it. And let's go with 24 hour time while we are at it. This whole AM / PM thing is soooo 18th century. Apologies for the thread drift, and now back to your regular programming........
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  #97  
Old 08-14-2016, 10:46 PM
steelvibe steelvibe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
Appropo of very little, in mechanical engineering school (1978-1982) everything academic was done in metric. I was fully comfortable and fluent in metric units for everything. But my entire career since has been almost purely Imperial units.

I wish the US would just convert to metric and be done with it. And let's go with 24 hour time while we are at it. This whole AM / PM thing is soooo 18th century. Apologies for the thread drift, and now back to your regular programming........
Ha, yes Earl! Carry on with our regular programming also has it's own issues. That regular programming for those of us with young children means that, now that they are used to the sun going down at 8:30 here in Colorado, we will have major issues adjusting them back to school neck week.

I know, those of you who advocate for DST because it means more daylight for playtime in the Summer will be hard to let that go. Even I enjoy the longer days to be sure. However, when the Fall hits, and when it is time to attempt a stern forcing at getting your young ones to bed at a reasonable time so that they are not zombies at school the next day, it just becomes a serious pain.
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  #98  
Old 08-15-2016, 03:57 AM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Daylight Savings Time is the second thing that would disappear the day after I become Emporer.

I lived in Alaska for many years, and DST is even more absurd there than here in the Lower 48, You go from one extreme to another - Anchorage gets 19.5 hours of daylight (and 4.5 hours of twilight) in June and 5.5 hours of daylight in December. In the summer the neighborhood kids would be out playing and screaming in the street until 1 am, and your neighbor was just as likely to mow the lawn at midnight as any other hour. Made it tough for us adults that had to be at work by 0700 and wanted to sleep.
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  #99  
Old 08-15-2016, 03:19 PM
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In my opinion, there are actually two kinds of crossovers, one for fingerstyle players and one for pick users. The main difference is that fingerstyle players benefit from a string spacing at the saddle that is about 2mm wider than the optimum spacing for pick users. Since I'm not a fan of "jack of all trades, master of none," I recommend optimizing for one or the other.

From a marketing perspective, the obvious choice is fingerstyle, although the largest market for something new is electric guitarists who use a pick. While I can dial in specific numbers for pick users, I can only offer an educated guess for a fingerstyle crossover guitar. My guess is 57mm string spacing at the saddle.

So, using my equations for minimum possible neck width:
Neck width at nut = string spacing at nut + 7mm
Neck width at 12th Fret = string spacing at 12th fret + 9.5mm

and the basic string spacing equation:
string spacing at 12th fret = (string spacing at nut + string spacing at saddle)/2

the minimum neck width at the 12th fret for various string spacings at the nut, with a 57mm string spacing at the saddle, are:

41.5mm string spacing at the nut requires a minimum neck width of 58.75mm at the 12th fret.

41mm string spacing at the nut requires a minimum neck width of 58.5mm at the 12th fret.

40.5mm string spacing at the nut requires a minimum neck width of 58.25mm at the 12th fret.

40mm string spacing at the nut requires a minimum neck width of 58mm at the 12th fret.

Remember that string spacing can always be narrower, and neck width can always be wider. The goal of my experiment was to identify the widest possible string spacing for the narrowest possible neck width, in order to create a guitar that is as close to a steel string acoustic as possible while still honoring the physical properties of nylon strings.
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  #100  
Old 09-01-2016, 05:05 AM
ceciltguitar ceciltguitar is offline
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Just an opinion here: Greatest market penetration would be achieved with 2 nylon string models, one to appeal to steel string crossover players, one to appeal to classical guitarists. I believe that these are 2 very distinct markets:

A lot (maybe most?) of steel string players will not buy a guitar with a flat fretboard and a wide neck.

A lot (probably most) of classical guitarists will not buy a guitar with a radiused fretboard and a narrow neck.
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  #101  
Old 09-01-2016, 08:41 AM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Interesting comment Cecil. I used to own a crossover Taylor with curved fret board. A pure flat & wide classical neck is too much for me, since I use thumb-over for the bass strings when playing ragtime and Piedmont blues.

It would require building two different necks, but would cast the widest possible net.
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  #102  
Old 09-01-2016, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handers View Post
I have a VAOM-2c and like it much for travel.

I don't think a classical is feasible bc the strings stretch so much more. Retuning each time u break down the neck would be detrimental to the strings and be so annoying. With steel strings the guitar is within a half tone of tuned pitch when u bring up the neck. My experience wth replacing classical strings suggests this is a problem

Hans
I'm quoting the above post from a current thread on the General forum titled "What's happened with Voyage Air guitars?" I thought Hans' commentary about a folding (or removable) neck in consideration of nylon strings is quite relevant to this thread discussion. I wonder what Rob thinks about this and if it's the challenge of it that's taking so much time, if not eventually realizing it may not be feasible.
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  #103  
Old 09-01-2016, 06:16 PM
pandaroo pandaroo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acousticado View Post
I'm quoting the above post from a current thread on the General forum titled "What's happened with Voyage Air guitars?" I thought Hans' commentary about a folding (or removable) neck in consideration of nylon strings is quite relevant to this thread discussion. I wonder what Rob thinks about this and if it's the challenge of it that's taking so much time, if not eventually realizing it may not be feasible.
Yes it is a challenge. I used to own a Brunner guitar which has a detachable and interchangeable neck concept (steel and nylon) and putting the nylon string neck on is a quite fiddly and tricky then the steel string neck due to Han's comment above. Nevertheless, it worked. See link below of the Brunner with nylon string neck which was my guitar that John Doan played before it was shipped to me back in 2010.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3-oC3PtwjI
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  #104  
Old 09-01-2016, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandaroo View Post
Yes it is a challenge. I used to own a Brunner guitar which has a detachable and interchangeable neck concept (steel and nylon) and putting the nylon string neck on is a quite fiddly and tricky then the steel string neck due to Han's comment above. Nevertheless, it worked. See link below of the Brunner with nylon string neck which was my guitar that John Doan played before it was shipped to me back in 2010.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3-oC3PtwjI
Quite interesting to have a guitar with two interchangeable necks. I'm not a nylon player, but that little guy sounded quite good.

Evan, are you familiar with this Brunner?
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  #105  
Old 09-02-2016, 09:59 AM
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Acousticado;

Yes. The McNichol carbon fiber guitar forum had a lot of discussion of the Brunner Cf guitar with interchangeable necks. I think there has been an underlying fantasy that CF might allow the same guitar to be both nylon and steel strung. For a brief while I shared that fantasy and tried nylon strings on steel string guitars. As might be expected, the attempt did not really work out. The crossover did retain some tonal qualities of nylon strings, but projection was seriously diminished.

I thought about trying steel strings on nylon string CF guitars but never gave it a run for fear of damaging a guitar designed for less tension than produced by steel strings. In short, I do not think the same guitar is going to work well for both steel and nylon strings.

I am also wary of removable necks on nylon string instruments. In a previous discussion of the Journey nylon string project I suggested that I would like to see the guitar produced without the removable neck.

While not in favor of the interchangeable neck idea, I am in favor of hybrid instruments that incorporate the best of classical and contemporary guitars. I like a nut width less than the traditional two inches. And I like a lightly curved neck radius. I am not so enthused about the off-set sound hole and sound ports, though I have tried both. I do like a cut-a-way for the added reach up the fret board, but believe that it diminishes the projection of a guitar, a problem that might be resolved with further exploration.

I look forward to seeing what Rob has to say regarding all the feedback on his new nylon string guitar; as things stand, I am not holding my breath for its production.
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