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Old 02-12-2017, 12:59 PM
bayoubengal bayoubengal is offline
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Default Archtop Newbie:Godin 5th Ave and then install after market pick up v Godin Kingpin?

Hey Folks! I should start off by saying I'm not a Jazz Player, but a Roots/Blues/Americana player. However, I write some songs and perform some covers that I believe benefit from the archtop voicing. I do play up the neck with barre chords, but often capo up and play open position chords "folk style". My fingerpicking is mostly Travis picking. I would be gigging with this guitar as a second guitar on some songs as either a solo or in a duo with another vocalist/acoustic guitarist.

Here is my dilemma:

I believe I have my search narrowed down to the Godin 5th Ave. or the Godin 5th Ave. Kingpin which I understand is the 5th Ave. with a P90 pickup installed.

There are times I would want to just mic the guitar and other times I would want to plug in. I know there is some loss of the acoustic sound with the P90 pickup installed, so I could consider buying the all acoustic 5th Ave. and installing an after market floating pick up to preserve the more acoustic sound, or I could just buy the Kingpin be good to go either way and live with the loss of acoustic sound.

I guess I'm wondering if the loss is so minimal that I might as well go with the Kingpin? At age 62 my ears aren't the greatest. I know I would not be in a position to do a personal side by side demo.

What say you?
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Old 02-12-2017, 01:37 PM
jpbat jpbat is offline
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The acoustic sound of the 5th Avenue series will not be troubled by any PU in the top. Or two of them.
This is not a guitar you use for its acoustic capabilities, except for practicing late at night in an hotel room.
Maybe a piezo PU of some sort on the top could add some useful acoustic color to the sound of a magnetic PU. Maybe.
But I can't picture gigging with a microphone in front of a 5th Avenue.
Even the thicker body ones.
YMMV.

(I live in Montreal where you can find the entire Godin line anywhere, and I tested all sort of 5th Avenue models. Sturdy laminate little beasts, can be bought used for not much money. I would own one if only they had a wider neck. But using one acoustically ? No.)
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Old 02-12-2017, 02:37 PM
bayoubengal bayoubengal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpbat View Post
The acoustic sound of the 5th Avenue series will not be troubled by any PU in the top. Or two of them.
This is not a guitar you use for its acoustic capabilities, except for practicing late at night in an hotel room.
Maybe a piezo PU of some sort on the top could add some useful acoustic color to the sound of a magnetic PU. Maybe.
But I can't picture gigging with a microphone in front of a 5th Avenue.
Even the thicker body ones.
YMMV.

(I live in Montreal where you can find the entire Godin line anywhere, and I tested all sort of 5th Avenue models. Sturdy laminate little beasts, can be bought used for not much money. I would own one if only they had a wider neck. But using one acoustically ? No.)
Thanks so much for this perspective! I have found that Soundpure has taken an Eastman mahogany b/s model AR610 and then later installed a Barbera Soloist transducer pick up in their shop. The good news is that it could be a good guitar to use both in front of the microphone or plugged in since in theory the transducer pick up shouldn't compromise the acoustic sound as much as a mounted P90.
On the downside the street price is $1720 (it is all solid tone woods), so obviously a different animal than the Godin.
I've got something for sale right now, maybe I could get this when it sells.
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1974 Martin D-28 (A gift for my 20th birthday from Mom and Dad)
"Frankenstein" 1948 Gibson J-50 Body/1938 L-00 Neck
2008 Martin 000-18 Norman Blake
2006 Jubal Jumbo
2016 New Era Crooked Star Prairie State Jumbo
2016 New Era Crooked Star Senorita
2020 Iris Smeck
1972 Guild Killdeer F112-6 Part Deux

Last edited by bayoubengal; 02-14-2017 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 02-12-2017, 02:39 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpbat View Post
...This is not a guitar you use for its acoustic capabilities...I can't picture gigging with a microphone in front of a 5th Avenue...I live in Montreal where you can find the entire Godin line anywhere, and I tested all sorts of 5th Avenue models. Sturdy laminate little beasts, can be bought used for not much money...But using one acoustically ? No...
I'm not surprised you're not a fan of the 5th Avenue acoustic tone as it comes from the factory - neither was I when I first bought mine; unless you're playing strictly Gypsy jazz ditch the light-gauge strings in favor of 13's (or heavier - I'm using PB 14's on my acoustic, flatwound 13's on my CW II) - you'll notice a major improvement in both tone and volume, and I've (actually, one of my former students) used mine in front of a mic with excellent results...

B.B.:
If you're doing Travis picking/playing up the neck, in the grand scheme your needs might be better served with the twin P-90/single-cut CW II. While it's first and foremost a traditional jazz/blues/roots/rockabilly box in the mold of the early-50's ES-175D - meaning it's not exactly a first choice for miking - you can get a passable acoustic tone (similar to a dread/small-jumbo with a magnetic pickup) with a set of roundwound or (better still IME) half-round 13's and some careful EQ tweaking at the amp (FWIW I'd only use a dedicated electric-guitar amp - preferably with as few bells-&-whistles as possible - with this one)...

Finally, given your age (hey, I'm 63 myself) and tastes in music, I'm kinda surprised Gretsch isn't on your radar - a big mistake IMO, since their present MIK Electromatic 5400/5600 Series are some of the highest-quality, finest-playing/sounding instruments they've ever made; FYI I'm an ex-Brooklyn boy who grew up on Gretsch - I was a fan long before the Beatles arrived, my grandparents lived three blocks from the old 60 Broadway plant, I still have the copy of the '63 catalog (and the '64 Double Annie) I got as a kid in my collection, I've probably played a few hundred originals over the last 55 years, and I bought a new 5622T-CB last May - so this is not a statement/judgement I make lightly. In addition to "That Great Gretsch Sound," nothing else looks like a Gretsch - and if you've ever had a jones for a mid-60's Tennesseean, Nashville, Country Gent, or White Falcon, you can scratch the itch without it costing an arm, a leg, and a couple other valuable appendages :

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/G5420TORNG
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/G5622TVO
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/G5422TGWS
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/G5422TGSNWH
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Old 02-12-2017, 02:58 PM
bayoubengal bayoubengal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
I'm not surprised you're not a fan of the 5th Avenue acoustic tone as it comes from the factory - neither was I when I first bought mine; unless you're playing strictly Gypsy jazz ditch the light-gauge strings in favor of 13's (or heavier - I'm using PB 14's on my acoustic, flatwound 13's on my CW II) - you'll notice a major improvement in both tone and volume, and I've (actually, one of my former students) used mine in front of a mic with excellent results...

B.B.:
If you're doing Travis picking/playing up the neck, in the grand scheme your needs might be better served with the twin P-90/single-cut CW II. While it's first and foremost a traditional jazz/blues/roots/rockabilly box in the mold of the early-50's ES-175D - meaning it's not exactly a first choice for miking - you can get a passable acoustic tone (similar to a dread/small-jumbo with a magnetic pickup) with a set of roundwound or (better still IME) half-round 13's and some careful EQ tweaking at the amp (FWIW I'd only use a dedicated electric-guitar amp - preferably with as few bells-&-whistles as possible - with this one)...

Finally, given your age (hey, I'm 63 myself) and tastes in music, I'm kinda surprised Gretsch isn't on your radar - a big mistake IMO, since their present MIK Electromatic 5400/5600 Series are some of the highest-quality, finest-playing/sounding instruments they've ever made; FYI I'm an ex-Brooklyn boy who grew up on Gretsch - I was a fan long before the Beatles arrived, my grandparents lived three blocks from the old 60 Broadway plant, I still have the copy of the '63 catalog (and the '64 Double Annie) I got as a kid in my collection, I've probably played a few hundred originals over the last 55 years, and I bought a new 5622T-CB last May - so this is not a statement/judgement I make lightly. In addition to "That Great Gretsch Sound," nothing else looks like a Gretsch - and if you've ever had a jones for a mid-60's Tennesseean, Nashville, Country Gent, or White Falcon, you can scratch the itch without it costing an arm, a leg, and a couple other valuable appendages :

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/G5420TORNG
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/G5622TVO
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/G5422TGWS
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/G5422TGSNWH
I use only 13s on my flat tops because I tune a half step down and the lights feel "floppy" to me so that is good info to have regarding the acoustic tone of the 5th Ave. with heavier gauge strings!

Thanks for the tip on the Gretsch models. The only thing holding me back may be the purely personal taste of a traditional non cutaway shape, but it is not necessarily a deal breaker. Thanks for your time on this!
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1974 Martin D-28 (A gift for my 20th birthday from Mom and Dad)
"Frankenstein" 1948 Gibson J-50 Body/1938 L-00 Neck
2008 Martin 000-18 Norman Blake
2006 Jubal Jumbo
2016 New Era Crooked Star Prairie State Jumbo
2016 New Era Crooked Star Senorita
2020 Iris Smeck
1972 Guild Killdeer F112-6 Part Deux
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Old 02-12-2017, 09:35 PM
Birdbrain Birdbrain is offline
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Default String choice is the thing

I'm in a similar position to the OP. I actually own two Fifths, one a Kingpin. That's pretty redundant, and I wish it wasn't necessary. But I haven't yet found a set of strings that will give good tone both ways. Electric strings are necessary to make the P-90 sing evenly across all strings, but they don't have nearly the bite and body of Nickel wound acoustic strings when unplugged. I've even tried DR's new Zebra hybrid strings and found them lacking.

So I don't know if either version of the Fifth Avenue will do what hew wants done. But I don't know it all, so I welcome string advice!

What I can say is that the Kingpin's pickup seems to have little effect on its acoustic sound. If I gave up one, I'd keep the Kingpin, because it's such a hoot to run it through a Tube Screamer and joust with my buddies on their Stratocasters!
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Old 02-12-2017, 09:45 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Try the Martin Monel Tony Rice set - works both ways...
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Old 02-12-2017, 11:56 PM
Birdbrain Birdbrain is offline
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Default Really?

You seem to know and love Fifth Avenues as much as anybody here, so I guess you know best. But that seems like an unlikely choice. A "Retro," "Bluegrass" string with a bluegrass player's name, and he's pictured playing a flattop acoustic, from a material "...used in the propellor of dreadnaught battleships..." (really?).

How would these strings interact with a P-90 pickup?
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Old 02-12-2017, 11:57 PM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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Like others have said, I would not worry about potential acoustic loss because of the pickup nor would I install a floating pick-up on a 5th Avenue. If you intend to plug it in, I'd definitely go with an under saddle pickup or go for the Kingpin model.

While the 5th Avenue may not be a solid wood guitar, IME it's still a very cool acoustic instrument. It doesn't have a lot of low end but in acoustic jams it does a fine job. Single notes are sweet and have plenty of volume. The tone is fairly dry and fundamental with little overtone content.

A lot of people who complain about the "bright and thin sound" are comparing the 5th Avenue against flattops -- but that comparison wouldn't be fair IMHO. When compared with other small bodied archtops, the 5th Avenue is doing just fine.

And in its price range, the 5th Avenue is tough to beat.

Last edited by JoeCharter; 02-13-2017 at 12:03 AM.
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Old 02-13-2017, 01:01 AM
Birdbrain Birdbrain is offline
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Default For me, the attraction is physical

One hidden feature of the Fifth Avenue (and my Seagull MJ) is how much vibration they transmit through their backs into my chest. When I dig in, she kicks back like a baby in... well, I won't go there now. Let's just say the guitar feels alive. It's completely opposite the detached feeling of playing a Strat with slinky strings and a big amp. That's loud, sure, but can you feel it?
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:26 AM
whd28 whd28 is online now
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Default 5th Ave

The Godin 5th Ave does fine acoustically, especially with phosphor bronze strings. It doesn't sound like a flattop - it's not supposed to. They are a really good value.
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Old 02-13-2017, 09:48 AM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Nashvillian View Post
You seem to know and love Fifth Avenues as much as anybody here, so I guess you know best. But that seems like an unlikely choice. A "Retro," "Bluegrass" string with a bluegrass player's name, and he's pictured playing a flattop acoustic, from a material "...used in the propellor of dreadnaught battleships..." (really?).

How would these strings interact with a P-90 pickup?
A few points:
  • String gauge is 13-56 - doesn't matter if Frankenstein's picture is on the package and he's playing a B.C. Rich Warlock;
  • Monel was in fact used in the military, but it also has a long and rich history in acoustic string making dating back at least to the 1930's - TMK the old New Brunswick [NJ] Black Diamond strings were monel-wrapped - and one of the reasons players preferred them for both banjo and archtop guitar is that their natural mellow response took some of the steely edge off (the very reason Tony Rice uses them, BTW);
  • Monel is magnetic - they would have been the strings of choice for pre-war/early post-war players experimenting with the then-new electric guitar, and Gibson marketed monel electric strings (under the name "Mona-Steel" - came in a little orange box) at least through the late-1960's...
Bottom Line: try them, keep them if you like them, change them if you don't...
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Old 02-13-2017, 02:25 PM
bayoubengal bayoubengal is offline
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Thanks everyone. You've given me some great information to use in my decision making process!
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1974 Martin D-28 (A gift for my 20th birthday from Mom and Dad)
"Frankenstein" 1948 Gibson J-50 Body/1938 L-00 Neck
2008 Martin 000-18 Norman Blake
2006 Jubal Jumbo
2016 New Era Crooked Star Prairie State Jumbo
2016 New Era Crooked Star Senorita
2020 Iris Smeck
1972 Guild Killdeer F112-6 Part Deux
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:59 AM
paddybrumson paddybrumson is offline
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I currently have a Godin 5th Ave acoustic that I've added a floating pickup to the pickguard (Kent Armstrong Slimbucker). While I get a pleasant acoustic tone with 12s and a nice acoustic jazz tone with the pickup, I have another recommendation for you that might suite your needs better. The Loar LH 300 or The Loar LH 600 (which I have). The 300 is in the same price range as the acoustic Godin, but with a solid spruce top has a a better acoustic sound. The 600 is all solid wood and sounds even better, but runs closer to a grand. Either can be fitted with a floating pickup or a transducer pickup and still retain their acoustic properties. The only issue with the Loars is QC and build quality. Not up to the Godins, but they both perform better acoustically.

The other thing to consider with a Kingpin is that the P90 is a single coil pickup that is pretty noisy compared to transducers of floating humbuckers and their sound runs more to rock and blues or jazz with the treble on an amp turned down. You don't say if you would be using an acoustic amp or regular guitar amp for your plugged in songs. Might want to test drive a Kingpin with a P90 plugged into see if it will do what you want with your amp.
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:08 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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I use the Monels on my Kingpin. Sounds great.
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