Is my bridge plate big enough for a dazzo?

[Dean Riley]

Not loving the K&K in my custom Martin m-36... Passable sound requires huge amounts of cut in the mids and highs... This is my 4th or 5th k&k and not sure why, but it's almost opposite eq of any other install I have... Playing through a grace design Felix.

Professionally installed by a known good dealer. Looked inside and am wondering if the bridge plate size may be partially to blame due to size?

[guitarman68]

Yeah, short bridge plate could be the reason, although K&K says a little overlap will not cause problems.
SBTs are hardly predictable, results vary from guitar to guitar, stiffness and thickness of the bridge plate being the main reason. That's my conclusion after many installs with K&K, UltraTonic, Dazzo and Schatten HFN.
To me it looks like the bridge plate could be to short for a Dazzo. My luthier helps with adding a small "fake bridge plate" (same height, stiff wood) under the two elements of the Dazzo and is happy with the results.
Looks like a UltraTonic pickup could be the ticket, but I would measure the space and compare it with the UltraTonic specs. Or ask James May, the inventor himself. His pickup is the most consistent sounding SBT I came across. He even offers a K&K kit which changes your K&K to a UltraTonic. Maybe the solution for your problem.

[Dean Riley]

Originally Posted by guitarman68

Yeah, short bridge plate could be the reason, although K&K says a little overlap will not cause problems.
SBTs are hardly predictable, results vary from guitar to guitar, stiffness and thickness of the bridge plate being the main reason. That's my conclusion after many installs with K&K, UltraTonic, Dazzo and Schatten HFN.
To me it looks like the bridge plate could be to short for a Dazzo. My luthier helps with adding a small "fake bridge plate" (same height, stiff wood) under the two elements of the Dazzo and is happy with the results.
Looks like a UltraTonic pickup could be the ticket, but I would measure the space and compare it with the UltraTonic specs. Or ask James May, the inventor himself. His pickup is the most consistent sounding SBT I came across. He even offers a K&K kit which changes your K&K to a UltraTonic. Maybe the solution for your problem.

Thanks for the feedback... yea the only other time I had a less then preferable install with a K&K was on a Southern Jumbo and the middle sensor was directly over the hole in the gibson bridge plate... maybe they are more sensitive to this then I thought.

I'll look into the UltraTonic - I haven't used one but had a tonedexter for awhile so am familiar with James's work.

[James May]

From your description, it sounds like this install came out bass weak, since you have to cut mids and highs. That is very unlike a typical K&K install, as you say. Let me know if I'm misinterpreting.

I'm assuming your plugging into at least 470Kohm input, or more. If you plug into a 10k-20Kohm line input, you'll get a very thin sound.

The overhang of the discs is fine, and it looks like they were positioned correctly. My best guess is that your bridge plate is pretty stiff. That, combined with its small size COULD be the root of your wonky response. Though I am far from sure.

How is the string to string balance? And how is the feedback immunity?

[Dean Riley]

Originally Posted by James May

From your description, it sounds like this install came out bass weak, since you have to cut mids and highs. That is very unlike a typical K&K install, as you say. Let me know if I'm misinterpreting.

I'm assuming your plugging into at least 470Kohm input, or more. If you plug into a 10k-20Kohm line input, you'll get a very thin sound.

The overhang of the discs is fine, and it looks like they were positioned correctly. My best guess is that your bridge plate is pretty stiff. That, combined with its small size COULD be the root of your wonky response. Though I am far from sure.

How is the string to string balance? And how is the feedback immunity?

Thanks so much for jumping in James - appreciate you and love your ToneDexter!

Yes, more or less I think that's an accurate analysis... I am running through a grace design felix and have played with the input and settled on 1Mohm.

The string to string balance is generally ok when open, but often the notes on, particularly the low E, are not... if I play open E, F, F# it's pretty full, but G and up loses massive low end and have a very nasty mid frequency... I end up going around -10 to -12 DB at ~ 225-250 hz, -8 to -10 in the highs, and then push the bass to +4 or +5... I get a "passable" sound here, but it's not very inspiring and again, the low E string notes from G on up don't sound very good and lack a lot of low end. It's hard to tell at times if one frequency is over exaggerated - or it almost feels like I'm missing the low end and have to cut nasty frequencies to overcome it... either way, it does not respond like the other 4-5 K&K pickups I have owned or played with and the eq is massively different. I will say I feel like the "Sub bass" is mostly there... aka I set my high pass around 80sih, but the "low mids" are very much lacking... and then there is an over abundance of nasally mids and then highs.

I'm at work but will see if I can get a recording tonight.

The guitar itself is very resonant, has outstanding low end, and is very balanced - I don't hear the issues acoustically that I hear when using the K&K.

Edit to add: for feedback immunity - I haven't used it on stage yet since I haven't loved what I have gotten in my studio... I haven't noticed feedback being an issue but haven't pushed volume yet

[James May]

Originally Posted by Dean Riley

Thanks so much for jumping in James - appreciate you and love your ToneDexter!

Yes, more or less I think that's an accurate analysis... I am running through a grace design felix and have played with the input and settled on 1Mohm.

The string to string balance is generally ok when open, but often the notes on, particularly the low E, are not... if I play open E, F, F# it's pretty full, but G and up loses massive low end and have a very nasty mid frequency... I end up going around -10 to -12 DB at ~ 225-250 hz, -8 to -10 in the highs, and then push the bass to +4 or +5... I get a "passable" sound here, but it's not very inspiring and again, the low E string notes from G on up don't sound very good and lack a lot of low end. It's hard to tell at times if one frequency is over exaggerated - or it almost feels like I'm missing the low end and have to cut nasty frequencies to overcome it... either way, it does not respond like the other 4-5 K&K pickups I have owned or played with and the eq is massively different. I will say I feel like the "Sub bass" is mostly there... aka I set my high pass around 80sih, but the "low mids" are very much lacking... and then there is an over abundance of nasally mids and then highs.

I'm at work but will see if I can get a recording tonight.

The guitar itself is very resonant, has outstanding low end, and is very balanced - I don't hear the issues acoustically that I hear when using the K&K.

Edit to add: for feedback immunity - I haven't used it on stage yet since I haven't loved what I have gotten in my studio... I haven't noticed feedback being an issue but haven't pushed volume yet

Interesting. From your more detailed description I am inclined to think one of those discs has the wrong polarity and you are getting massive cancellation of important parts of the spectrum.

HOWEVER, I find that notion improbably because Dieter at K&K has assured me that every disc is verified to have the same polarity. I suppose it's possible, but seems unlikely. In fact, my Ultra Tonic conversion kit relies on the K&Ks all being the same polarity, and I've never had the issue come up. FYI, I have seen this happen with JJB.

It can be tested for, but requires unsoldering the discs from each other and pressing on them one at a time while using a scope to determine if polarity is correct. I suppose this is what I'd do if I had the issue, but is difficult for most to manage.

All that said, I'm sorry to say I'm anything but sure what your issue actually is.

[jseth]

Well, the Dazzo only has two small triangle sensors to the K&K's three... I'd guess that my Dazzos are 1/2 again the size of the individual K&K transducers... I would think they'd fit your Martin.

As disappointed as I was with the K&K in my Goodall Grand Concert, I am overly thrilled with the Dazzo pickups; I now have them in both my Goodall Concert Jumbo and my Mark Angus 12 string - both guitars are a "mini-jumbo" shape/size, which seems would be similar to an M-36.

[Dean Riley]

Originally Posted by jseth

Well, the Dazzo only has two small triangle sensors to the K&K's three... I'd guess that my Dazzos are 1/2 again the size of the individual K&K transducers... I would think they'd fit your Martin.

As disappointed as I was with the K&K in my Goodall Grand Concert, I am overly thrilled with the Dazzo pickups; I now have them in both my Goodall Concert Jumbo and my Mark Angus 12 string - both guitars are a "mini-jumbo" shape/size, which seems would be similar to an M-36.

Thanks for the feedback! Do you happen to have a pic of the bridgeplate with them installed?