Electric Cars

[AX17609]

With respect to range, I get the sense that the stated range for an EV is about as distorted as women's dress sizes. They're stated to impress the buyer but don't represent reality.

Part of the issue as far as a Tesla is concerned is that the company only recommends an 80% charge. The last 20% eats into battery life and proceeds more slowly than the first 80%. So, you never get the full, stated range for the vehicle.

In addition, range is affected by your rate of acceleration, higher highway speeds, ambient air temperature, use of heat/AC, and a host of other issues. Experience will dictate your need; it's hard to evaluate in advance. The phrase "YMMV" is never more apt than it is with an EV.

I hear over an over that if you're a 50-70 mile/day driver, you'll do just fine with household power which provides 3-5 miles/hr of charge. If you need a little more, then a 240V line is worth the effort. If you have more than one EV charging in your garage, a Tesla Level 3 charger would probably be a good idea.

For long road trips, think in terms of a 20-30 minute stop to recharge at a commercial charger every 150 miles or so. So, if you're a multi-hundred-mile-a day sales rep, you might want to look elsewhere. They're just not every day road cars.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by Fogducker

Electric cars are great but along with the old saying "There is no free lunch!" the energy has to come from somewhere. About 60% of electricity comes from the hated fossil fuels. So keep up the research in solar, wind, hydrogen etc. (Nuclear is completely off the table) but for now, we will have to deal with the cards we hold. Sure is nice to be energy independent.

Following along with the money, the governmental units are in a frenzy about how to tax things so they can do their spending.

Fog

Per your comments on Great Lakes, I suggest watching that steady stream of turbine parts distributed from the lakes and state of solar in our region. Especially the costs for both. Make sure you're not in an out of date body of knowledge.

Good models for how we pave our roads are out there. Having travelled and even worked in much different places such as Middle East, S. America and Russia, plus years on a city council committee figuring out how we pave our roads, I don't think we have it that bad. I like the way sprawl and tax are handled where I have family in the Denver area - the outer/new toll roads.

My city did exactly what the freedom interests wanted - personal responsibility - and then same interests had a fit when they got it - the actual bill to fix the streets. I liked that a lot. A few months after the $900+ bill we got new street.

Lots of complicated stuff and decisions but also lots of good models and successes are there to look at and follow.

Originally Posted by AX17609

With respect to range, I get the sense that the stated range for an EV is about as distorted as women's dress sizes. They're stated to impress the buyer but don't represent reality.

Part of the issue as far as a Tesla is concerned is that the company only recommends an 80% charge. The last 20% eats into battery life and proceeds more slowly than the first 80%. So, you never get the full, stated range for the vehicle.

In addition, range is affected by your rate of acceleration, higher highway speeds, ambient air temperature, use of heat/AC, and a host of other issues. Experience will dictate your need; it's hard to evaluate in advance. The phrase "YMMV" is never more apt than it is with an EV.

I hear over an over that if you're a 50-70 mile/day driver, you'll do just fine with household power which provides 3-5 miles/hr of charge. If you need a little more, then a 240V line is worth the effort. If you have more than one EV charging in your garage, a Tesla Level 3 charger would probably be a good idea.

For long road trips, think in terms of a 20-30 minute stop to recharge at a commercial charger every 150 miles or so. So, if you're a multi-hundred-mile-a day sales rep, you might want to look elsewhere. They're just not every day road cars.

In terms of the Teslas and Bolts my friends and family own you're pretty far off base except for worst winter travel.

The EPA range was just set for the ID.4. It's still a measure the way EPA ratings helped us chose ICE vehicles. Two in our family of 5 drivers will always be on low side, 2 on high side, one in the middle. Two get to the next stop light first. I forget which Tesla, but my boss has done 300 mi trips. The friend with more base Model 3 says making the toilet and food stops at SuperChargers are not really an issue for trips up to 100s of miles. My boss points out a "so what" based on the lack of time ever spent for gas stations and oil changes for most of the time.

My feeling is we'll have much better $35,000 - $42,000 sticker choices and range when in the 2-5 year time we are thinking of for replacing our van.

Think about this with all the transportation changes. A friend who drives a work pickup that gets 12-13 MPG and has a Leaf said it only cost him $206 to rent a nice gasoline sedan that got high almost 40 MPG for a long road trip he just did. He thinks his strategy's smartest of all - owning two vehicles ideal for what he does most all the time.

[nickv6]

Originally Posted by Photojeep

I'm not trying to dispute anything anyone has said in relation of how "normal" driving and EV has become so please do not think I'm being flip with this question.

When someone runs out of gas, they have the option of somehow getting to a gas station to buy a small quantity of gas to get them to the nearest place to fill up. I've done this myself. Was I just being overly optimistic and stupid? Yep.

If I drive an EV and stay equally optimistic and stupid, how do I deal with this issue? Is my only option to be towed to the nearest charging station? Or is there some sort of "electric gas can" system that I'm not aware of?

Please know I am serious and not trying to troll this discussion. I'm very ignorant about these things so please educate me?

Thank you,
PJ

As I understand it you cannot tow an EV. Here in the UK there was a tv program that showed an ev out of juice a hundred yards from a charger but it couldn't be moved there. Had to be collected on a truck!

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by imwjl

In terms of the Teslas and Bolts my friends and family own you're pretty far off base except for worst winter travel.

The information I have attempted to share is based on the personal experience of dozens of Model 3 owners.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by RedJoker

It's interesting you mentioned this. None of the Tesla owners I know are under 50. To be fair, they wouldn't post on youtube either.

That appears to be on point, depending on the model. But it definitely isn't millennials.

Demographics of a Tesla Owner

The Hedges Company has also released some fascinating stats on Tesla owners. The average household income of a Tesla Model X owner is $143,177 per year. A Tesla Model 3 owner household makes $128,140 per year.

Compared to a median age of 38 for the US population, the median age of a Model X owner is 52 years old, and the median age of a Model S owner is 54. The median age of a Tesla Model 3 owner is 46 years old. Tesla has tapped a demographic which is willing to step well outside of their normal price range in order to get the Model 3, it seems.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/01...t-tesla-owners

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

Nothing is without a cost and it’s good to see all aspects of this:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lith...ronment-impact

Absolutely, nothing is free. That said, it's equally important to recognize all costs are not the same.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

All I know is showing a photo like the one Kevwind posted isn’t at all representative of 95% of the situation in the United States today.
We have come a long, long way in the reduction of pollutants from vehicles.
I’ll wager those fires out west a couple of months ago put more pollution into the air and over a larger amount of geography than the cars do in a year in the same regions.
Hey, all I know is whatever we do to produce energy, there is no such thing as “clean”. Cleaner? ...maybe.
I’m done too.

In reverse order Absolutely "Cleaner" is the entire point.

Comparing seasonal wildfire to everyday auto pollution is totally questionable as to amounts and severity and has absolutely nothing to do with the point of what we can do to reduce commuting pollution.

And your 95% is notion has a major flaw. Yes, while no doubt the "highly visible" inversion layer caused Auto produced smog,,, is only seen during said inversion layer situations,,, unfortunately that oblique fact does nothing to change the issue . Because the auto caused pollution is still happening in the same amounts , in every metro area in the US, every day, regardless of how visible it is or isn't, and that level of daily damage is still being done everyday And that is the issue ......

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by KevWind

In reverse order Absolutely "Cleaner" is the entire point.

Comparing seasonal wildfire to everyday auto pollution is totally questionable as to amounts and severity and has absolutely nothing to do with the point of what we can do to reduce commuting pollution.

And your 95% is notion has a major flaw. Yes, while no doubt the "highly visible" inversion layer caused Auto produced smog,,, is only seen during said inversion layer situations,,, unfortunately that oblique fact does nothing to change the issue . Because the auto caused pollution is still happening in the same amounts , in every metro area in the US, every day, regardless of how visible it is or isn't, and that level of daily damage is still being done everyday And that is the issue ......

And you don't even need to own an electric car to have an impact. We're not the typical stereotypes or labels people like to apply and just come common sense and accommodating this important to or for our kids has made an impact.

We're now 14 years of using a little less to sometimes lot less oil and electricity. Around 2000 to 5000 miles a year less driving two cars. Around 10 to 70 miles a week on foot or bike where most use cars. What's on the dinner table instead of in gas can for clearing a 94 ft driveway and lots of yard work.

Without being gym people and trying hard, we see there's no obesity in this house. We see there's been a whole lot of intact family time many don't have.

I often wonder about world impact if the simple changes could be multiplied by hundreds of millions.

[AX17609]

Since I started this thread, I've researched the Tesla Model 3 extensively and have amassed about 7 pages of notes. Even after setting aside the testimonials from obvious fan boys who have only owned the car for a week, I can't stop being impressed. Apparently, I'm not alone. I note with interest that sales of the Prius have fallen about as fast as sales of the Model 3 have increased. The Tesla is pretty obviously a game changer.

Now, I'm asking myself this -- setting aside environmental issues, for a person with a certain amount of money to spend, would they buy a Tesla Model 3 rather than an identically priced gas car?

How much are we talking about? As I write this, the preferred version of the Model 3 runs very close to $50k. That's pretty much equal to a similarly configured BMW 228xi 4-door Gran Coupe IF you add in the maintenance package required to reduce the cost of routine maintenance to zero.

At 353 miles for the Tesla, the range of the two cars is pretty close. With a top speed of 145 MPH for the Tesla the speed of the two cars is pretty close. With a 0/60 acceleration of 4.2 seconds for the Tesla, it blows the BMW away. In addition, thanks to a continuous stream of software upgrades, the Tesla is a continually evolving car. The BMW is fixed, actually moving backwards as technology evolves.

You charge the Tesla in your garage and never buy a drop of gas. Maintenance is pretty much limited to tires. Everyone says the Tesla is comfortable and drives beautifully. I can't find anyone who says different. Even without Full Self Driving, which may never be realized, the car performs magnificently.

So, I'm asking myself -- what's not to love?

[hubcapsc]

A fellow from where I worked (before I retired a few years ago) was on
the model-3 waiting list ever since you could get on it. He got it not
long after I retired. I met up with a bunch of them for lunch one day
and he and I went for a tesla ride afterwards. I loved it. He loves it.
The software upgrades keep on making it even better and better. Man
was it quick! He also demonstrated a few of the magic things it can do,
changing lanes automatically and maybe stopping at a light, I don't
remember exactly...

I ride motorcycles. As the world moves closer to "safe autonomous cars",
I see a time when they'll run the rest of us non-networked vehicles off
the road. If that ever happens, then I hate hate hate electric/autonomous
cars ...

-Mike

[Dirk Hofman]

Bentley announces at Dreamforce that they will be 100% hybrid + electric by 2025 and 100% electric by 2030.

Obviously a boutique brand, but equally obvious this is where the world is going.

[RedJoker]

One thing I really like about electric cars is that they are fuel agnostic. Electricity is not a fuel but it can be generated in a TON of different methods: coal, natural gas, wind, solar, hydro, nuclear, wave, oil, trash burning, wood, geothermal, etc. All of it works in an electric car.

[mesa]

Sweden is banning the sale of all cars with internal combustion engines (petrol & diesel) by 2030.

I trust the electric cars will be much better in 10 years.

https://autovistagroup.com/news-and-...mounts-germany

[valleyguy]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but here's my 2 cents.

Current cost differential between a piston car and an electric car is $19,000, it cost $19k extra to build an electric car. Most of the differential is the battery, I understand. My experience bears this out. I have been in and driven a Tesla 3, and at $50k it is not as nice as my $30 Mazda 6. Inside just feels cheap, kind of like a Prius versus a Corolla. It will be a long time before battery costs come down enough to squeeze that difference. As a society, how many people can afford $50k cars, and that price is with government support. Tesla gets a massive government check to support their production. You can point to the Leaf and Bolt, but these cars are produced at a loss to the company.

Range anxiety is a major downside for me. As fires in the batteries become more common, ranges have been reduced to prevent the fires. I don't want to have to stop every 200 mile (or 300) for an hour to recharge. Makes road trips out of the question. I see a Chinese car company has come up with a battery that can be replaced in 5 minutes to "refuel" your car quickly. That makes sense.

I see them in our future, but we need some real improvement in electricity generation and better battery technology.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by valleyguy

I'm a little late to this discussion, but here's my 2 cents.

Current cost differential between a piston car and an electric car is $19,000, it cost $19k extra to build an electric car. Most of the differential is the battery, I understand. My experience bears this out. I have been in and driven a Tesla 3, and at $50k it is not as nice as my $30 Mazda 6. Inside just feels cheap, kind of like a Prius versus a Corolla. It will be a long time before battery costs come down enough to squeeze that difference. As a society, how many people can afford $50k cars, and that price is with government support. Tesla gets a massive government check to support their production. You can point to the Leaf and Bolt, but these cars are produced at a loss to the company.

Range anxiety is a major downside for me. As fires in the batteries become more common, ranges have been reduced to prevent the fires. I don't want to have to stop every 200 mile (or 300) for an hour to recharge. Makes road trips out of the question. I see a Chinese car company has come up with a battery that can be replaced in 5 minutes to "refuel" your car quickly. That makes sense.

I see them in our future, but we need some real improvement in electricity generation and better battery technology.

Good points, but I think it's worth diving a little deeper. Total cost of ownership is a different equation, as running and operating electric cars is less than a third of the cost of gas/diesel fueled cars, and the $19,000 delta is being skewed by the huge popularity of Tesla's offerings, which yeah, aren't great for the average Joe. I could buy one but I'm not spending $80k on any car. That's a lot of college for my kids.

https://evcharging.enelx.com/news/bl...-gas-cars-cost

Certainly as these mandates on electrics continue, car makers are going to offer a much wider range of price options to address the entire market more comprehensively.