Similar To: In Praise of Cheap Guitars (but about pickups)

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by RussL30

I think some of electronics things that guitarist nerd out about make a very small difference, I do think pickups can make a big difference in some guitars.

As far as semi hollow go, I have a MIK Epiphone Sheraton my step father gifted me several years ago that he put in Duncan antiquities and the rest of the electronics are stock. He ended up getting him another one made in the same Korean Samick factory only a couple years newer with stock electronics and pickups.

Mine definitely has the edge when it comes to clean and light break up sounds. The cheaper Epiphone pickups handle higher gain a little better but definitely don’t have the definition and dynamics overall as the expensive antiquities. I really love the antiquities on this guitar, such great pickups.

As far as cheaper pickups, I really like the pickups on the Squier classic vibe series. At least the older MIC ones, haven’t played the newer Indonesian models.

Sounds like a vote for "it's worth it." Your experience appears to support my conclusion that the stock pickups are designed more for gain, but lack definition/dynamics. I've never heard a bad thing about the Antiquities.

I've heard good things about the Squier CV series, so I bought one of the double-bound Alder burst bodies (60s version, so lower output bridge pickup) to which I'm soon to affix a shorter scale conversion neck. The pickups are supposedly made by Tonerider for the CVs, and the 50s series CV offered a hotter bridge pickup than the 60s version, so I have one of those on standby. Hopefully a fun project. Body has a couple of chips I need to fix, and I need to put some finish on the neck, sand, etc.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

I don't think of most semi-hollowbodies in the ES335 mode as acoustic instruments. The Gibsons they are modeled after are designed more like a very inexpensive acoustic guitar: all laminated, a big ol' wood block in the middle of their acoustic space which is already not anywhere as deep as an acoustic guitar's body. These are electric guitars, designed with some air-space resonance that you may hear personally in a very low volume situation and that will interact with the strings in ways that will survive amplification to some degree, but the whole point of making them laminated, thinline, and with a solid block to mount the bridge and such on is to make them much less of an acoustic instrument,* and what wonderful music has been made on them!

How could I say that there's nothing in the construction or materials of your guitar that a more expensive 335 type, or even another example of your model might not have, but my experience of electric guitars is that such differences are small and pickups (and amps, and player's technique) are huge. If I wanted to "bench race" two 335 like designs and look to things other than electronics that would impact the guitar timbre I'd look to the neck resonance due to size, wood density and type and maybe bridge and tailpiece materials/design. And then if I played a lot of open strings, I'd next look to the nut. But all that is chasing smaller and smaller impacts. Pickups are highly likely to significantly change the sound of the guitar.

.

*After all, the ES335 models came after things like carved sold top large and deep bodied full hollow-bodied guitars, which were designed as acoustic instruments even if pickups were fitted to them.

Your point about the lower level construction quality of "acousticness" in a semi is what's been bugging me about wasting time/effort "chasing smaller impacts." If you're correct, then, apart from a too thick poly finish vs higher end nitro or thin poly, most high and low end semis are basically the same = you're paying more for finish/appointments on a Collings, say, than for building fundamentals. If that's the case, then a pickup change is worth it. I keep getting sidetracked by those who say they found this or that lower end semi, including my Ibanez, to be dead sounding. My Ibanez is satin finished, so no thick poly, and it seems to be similar in resonance to my Gibson 339.

With this discussion/responses in place, I'm thinking of letting the Ibanez keep its own voice, at least for now. It sounds fine, and does handle gain better than the PAF-level HBs I already have in other guitars (yes, I've got to pare this down someday), so why duplicate what I've already got? To answer my own question, I was thinking of keeping the Ibanez and selling the Gibson 339, and I still might do that, after all, if the Ibanez can do it all within spitting distance of the spendier Gibson, why not recover some $$? - that was my thinking, anyway.

I do need to spend less time "chasing small impacts." I love that phrase.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

The answer is yes, changing pickups in am inexpensive instrument can sometimes make a big difference. I've seen it too many times to count so I can answer this question from an experienced viewpoint!

Gracias! I love having options.

[DukeX]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

I looked at the Epi line (didn't the '12 Deluxe come w/ '57 Classics? http://www.epiphonewiki.org/index/Dot.php#Dot_Deluxe )

They were Epiphone G400 pickups. I still have them. Epiphone makes some they call "classics" I guess. Perhaps these are the same? Not bad pickups at all, but can't compare to SD Antiquities IMO.

I'm pretty sure they never put Gibson '57 Classics in off shore made $400 Epiphones.

And I don't trust any Wiki pages for accuracy.

[blue]

I got one of the Epi ES-175 premiums GC was blowing out a couple years ago for $469. They came with Gibson 57 classics. A set cost $300 at the time.

[DukeX]

Originally Posted by blue

I got one of the Epi ES-175 premiums GC was blowing out a couple years ago for $469. They came with Gibson 57 classics. A set cost $300 at the time.

Yeah, those were unique and were retailing for $1,000. You got a fabulous deal on that guitar!

[C-ville Brent]

My experience is generally yes. I've done this with four electric guitars (Squier Strat, Ibanez GRG120, Epi LP Vintage, Jackson JS11). They all sport various DiMarzio and SD pu's. I have an American Strat and couple of Gibson LPs, but I play the JS11 most often. It has a DiMarzio Super Distortion in the bridge and Air Norton in the neck. Running this through an old Tubescreamer into a Marshall Origin 20 head hooked up (via Cablink -> 16 ohm) into a couple 1x12 cabinets with Celestion Greenback and V-Type speakers. I'm back in the 70's. So, for $300 I've got a well-made, light weight, easy playing guitar that (to me) sounds great - 59 year old playing a red guitar with a pointy headstock - a lot of fun.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by C-ville Brent

My experience is generally yes. I've done this with four electric guitars (Squier Strat, Ibanez GRG120, Epi LP Vintage, Jackson JS11). They all sport various DiMarzio and SD pu's. I have an American Strat and couple of Gibson LPs, but I play the JS11 most often. It has a DiMarzio Super Distortion in the bridge and Air Norton in the neck. Running this through an old Tubescreamer into a Marshall Origin 20 head hooked up (via Cablink -> 16 ohm) into a couple 1x12 cabinets with Celestion Greenback and V-Type speakers. I'm back in the 70's. So, for $300 I've got a well-made, light weight, easy playing guitar that (to me) sounds great - 59 year old playing a red guitar with a pointy headstock - a lot of fun.

I agree it's a no-brainer when it comes to solid bodies like yours. I should have focused my original query on semi-hollows which rely on "air" and light(ish) construction for making their particular tone. I was concerned a "heavily built" lower-end factory made semi-hollow body wouldn't be able to achieve much tonal improvement if its constituent elements/assembly was likely hold back the "better" replacement pickups.

In any event, looks like you've got this whole process under control - no small feat.

[FrankHudson]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

I agree it's a no-brainer when it comes to solid bodies like yours. I should have focused my original query on semi-hollows which rely on "air" and light(ish) construction for making their particular tone. I was concerned a "heavily built" lower-end factory made semi-hollow body wouldn't be able to achieve much tonal improvement if its constituent elements/assembly was likely hold back the "better" replacement pickups.

In any event, looks like you've got this whole process under control - no small feat.

I may be repeating myself (my apologies if so) but do not think of the typical ES-335 style guitar as a "lightly built" guitar where subtleties of acoustic lutherie come into play. In the case of those guitars we're not talking about a hand-carved, tap-tuned archtop meant to have an acoustic sound alongside an optional electric pickup. While I think the size of the acoustic cavities in those ES-335 thinline electric guitars have an impact on the sound I think I can hear played clean, I doubt there's an appreciable difference the outweighs the effects of a pickup, amp and possible effects chain just in the body construction within the same general parameters. More expensive ES-335 style guitars may have nicer fit and finish, better stock electronics (including pickups, the variable your original question asked about), some improvements in other hardware--and I suppose some could have theories about neck wood type, dimensions, and joints too as impacting sound in some ways that you can hear in some context--but a set of good pickups into a good amp with equal playing skill will largely override all of those other factors put together.

[C-ville Brent]

I have an Ibanez AG95, an ES-175 copy/clone I believe that is a hollow body. My understanding is that most semi-hollow body, 335-style guitars have a tone block for feedback resistance so act much like a solid body electric. Not my area of expertise for sure, so definitely take it with a grain of salt.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

I may be repeating myself (my apologies if so) but do not think of the typical ES-335 style guitar as a "lightly built" guitar where subtleties of acoustic lutherie come into play. In the case of those guitars we're not talking about a hand-carved, tap-tuned archtop meant to have an acoustic sound alongside an optional electric pickup. While I think the size of the acoustic cavities in those ES-335 thinline electric guitars have an impact on the sound I think I can hear played clean, I doubt there's an appreciable difference the outweighs the effects of a pickup, amp and possible effects chain just in the body construction within the same general parameters. More expensive ES-335 style guitars may have nicer fit and finish, better stock electronics (including pickups, the variable your original question asked about), some improvements in other hardware--and I suppose some could have theories about neck wood type, dimensions, and joints too as impacting sound in some ways that you can hear in some context--but a set of good pickups into a good amp with equal playing skill will largely override all of those other factors put together.

Some overlap with your earlier comment, but with it came some added clarity that's much appreciated. My experience with semihollows is limited to what I have - the cheapish ($400) Ibanez (semihollow), a cheapish Epi ES 339 P90 (semihollow), a Gibson ES 339 (semihollow), and a Gibson ES 390 (fully hollow). Of these, the hollow 390 vibrates/resonates the most when played, followed by the Gibson 339, then (closely) the Epi 339, and, finally, the Ibanez, which hardly vibrates at all.

Rightly, or wrongly, concluding the degree of resonance reflects heaviness of construction/materials, the Ibanez is on the bottom. I've read others say (even within this thread) that Ibanez is known for a heavier construction, sounds dead, etc. . I was concerned putting nicer pickups into a "heavy" "dead" guitar would not yield much of a difference, but the consensus view here, including your own contribution, seems to be, "it'll still be worth it."

For now, I'm enjoying the Ibanez as-is, keeping in mind that its hotter pickups offer a different tone experience than my other HB guitars (mini HBs in the 390, PAFish HBs in the Gibson 339, and P90s in the Epi 339), I'm tempted to do nothing right now. If I run across a screaming deal on a nice set of pickups, though, I'm inclined to give them a try without fear of wasting the time or money.

[redir]

I'll pretty much repeat what I said in the other thread. Back even as soon as the 1990's Asian imports were becoming to become much better built guitars in terms of construction and set up but the pickups were awful. That got much better and today even the Asian imports sound reasonably well. But still replacing pickups is going to make a decently made Asian guitar sound just as good as it's American equivalent. As a tech I've replaced many a pickup in an Epi Les Paul for example and it rivals a true Les Paul easily.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by C-ville Brent

I have an Ibanez AG95, an ES-175 copy/clone I believe that is a hollow body. My understanding is that most semi-hollow body, 335-style guitars have a tone block for feedback resistance so act much like a solid body electric. Not my area of expertise for sure, so definitely take it with a grain of salt.

You're right about the center block in the semihollow, but even that's a potential tonal influencer, due to size, and wood used. The one in my Ibanez is pretty huge, and maple, while the one in my Gibson 339 is much smaller (it's also a smaller guitar than the Ibanez), which Gibson reduced further by cutting into the sides where it could to lighten things.

Your hollow bodies offer a nice comparable - do you notice the Gibson vibrates more when played than the Ibanez? I'd wager "yes," but would be interested to know.

[FrankHudson]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Some overlap with your earlier comment, but with it came some added clarity that's much appreciated. My experience with semihollows is limited to what I have - the cheapish ($400) Ibanez (semihollow), a cheapish Epi ES 339 P90 (semihollow), a Gibson ES 339 (semihollow), and a Gibson ES 390 (fully hollow). Of these, the hollow 390 vibrates/resonates the most when played, followed by the Gibson 339, then (closely) the Epi 339, and, finally, the Ibanez, which hardly vibrates at all.

Rightly, or wrongly, concluding the degree of resonance reflects heaviness of construction/materials, the Ibanez is on the bottom. I've read others say (even within this thread) that Ibanez is known for a heavier construction, sounds dead, etc. . I was concerned putting nicer pickups into a "heavy" "dead" guitar would not yield much of a difference, but the consensus view here, including your own contribution, seems to be, "it'll still be worth it."

For now, I'm enjoying the Ibanez as-is, keeping in mind that its hotter pickups offer a different tone experience than my other HB guitars (mini HBs in the 390, PAFish HBs in the Gibson 339, and P90s in the Epi 339), I'm tempted to do nothing right now. If I run across a screaming deal on a nice set of pickups, though, I'm inclined to give them a try without fear of wasting the time or money.

The theories and reported experience in this area will vary. There's the theory that resonance in an electric guitar is undesirable or potentially so as it leads to uneven response between notes and reduced sustain. Les Paul was a early proponent of that idea. Another theory is that electric guitar pickups are magnetic devices* that only sense metal string vibration and so the rest of the instrument just had to look and feel good to the player (think of some minimal electric guitar designs like the Steinberger or the Gittler). I've read the folks expounding those theories. And then there are those that swear that you can tell how good an electric guitar will sound by strumming it unplugged. My own practical experience tells me that there are effects from things like different woods or acoustic properties in electric guitars, but they are small, and not consistently detectable when one listens later in a recording.

When I play one of my large and full-depth, though laminated woods and Asian made, full hollow-body guitars I think they sound different than a solid body. I think some of that is bridge type (those archtop pedestal bridges) but I sense some of it is a different Attack Decay Sustain envelope more than some rich airy Resonance like the open chord strum on a good dreadnaught acoustic. At lower volumes with those guitars I'm even hearing some of the acoustic sound of these designed-to-be electric guitars over a low volume amp if I dig in some, and even with a ES-335 the other day I was noticing how much "acoustic" leakage there was in a vocal mic track on DI recording I made singing and playing at the same time wearing headphones.

So you and I both hear differences, and even associate them with what we feel against our torso when we play an electric guitar.

You have some guitars that should have a nice variety of sounds to them! Seems like a good thing! You may eventually learn to like the different sound of your Ibanez pickups or find that in another context or another amp they come into their own. But if you decide to swap pickups, the sound will likely change. Pickups make a difference.

*except some pickup are microphonic (and microphones are often magnetic devices too and yet pickup acoustic sound) or that the the string themselves will pickup vibrations from the body and relay that to the pickups.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

The theories and reported experience in this area will vary. There's the theory that resonance in an electric guitar is undesirable or potentially so as it leads to uneven response between notes and reduced sustain. Les Paul was a early proponent of that idea. Another theory is that electric guitar pickups are magnetic devices* that only sense metal string vibration and so the rest of the instrument just had to look and feel good to the player (think of some minimal electric guitar designs like the Steinberger or the Gittler). I've read the folks expounding those theories. And then there are those that swear that you can tell how good an electric guitar will sound by strumming it unplugged. My own practical experience tells me that there are effects from things like different woods or acoustic properties in electric guitars, but they are small, and not consistently detectable when one listens later in a recording.

When I play one of my large and full-depth, though laminated woods and Asian made, full hollow-body guitars I think they sound different than a solid body. I think some of that is bridge type (those archtop pedestal bridges) but I sense some of it is a different Attack Decay Sustain envelope more than some rich airy Resonance like the open chord strum on a good dreadnaught acoustic. At lower volumes with those guitars I'm even hearing some of the acoustic sound of these designed-to-be electric guitars over a low volume amp if I dig in some, and even with a ES-335 the other day I was noticing how much "acoustic" leakage there was in a vocal mic track on DI recording I made singing and playing at the same time wearing headphones.

So you and I both hear differences, and even associate them with what we feel against our torso when we play an electric guitar.

You have some guitars that should have a nice variety of sounds to them! Seems like a good thing! You may eventually learn to like the different sound of your Ibanez pickups or find that in another context or another amp they come into their own. But if you decide to swap pickups, the sound will likely change. Pickups make a difference.

*except some pickup are microphonic (and microphones are often magnetic devices too and yet pickup acoustic sound) or that the the string themselves will pickup vibrations from the body and relay that to the pickups.

I'd forgotten the theory that "resonance is the enemy of sustain." It's possible Ibanez wanted to focus more on sustain, than resonance, when designing this particular model. "Uneven response," however, is a new one for me that I'll have to (over)think about.

The "pickups are just microphones" thing, though, is true enough, but, to me, they're microphones that somehow pick up more than just the vibrating strings - they also pick up the empty spaces that somehow reflecting the soundboard's vibrations back into the pickup through the back of the pickup, where they're added to what the strings, alone, are contributing?? Otherwise, how do you explain the very different "moan" you get from a good semihollow or fully hollow? It's definitely a different sound from a solid body, a different type of sound - I've seen some call it "airy," but I'll go with "moan." I can easily tell blindfolded whether the guitar I'm hearing is a solid, or semi/full hollow, so to me, it's pretty distinctive. Apparently, it's pleasing to me, too, else why would I have so/too many of them?

Anyway, that's why I was asking the original question. If the Ibanez is overbuilt, then it seems the soundboard wouldn't resonate as freely with the same input, which would mean less of the interior space's impact would reach the pickups. In other words, it would look like a semihollow, but it it wouldn't sound as much like a GOOD semihollow. That was my theory. And, that said, the Ibanez definitely has some moan, but it's quieter in that regard than my Gibson's, or the Epi (which is unusually resonant for poly-clad Asian-made), which is why I thought it might be a waste of time to install nice pickups.

I like the Ibanez pickups fine, until I hear the Gibsons' HB/hb (regular/mini), or the Epi's P90s - then, I conclude that the Ibanez pickups sound less clear, but then I remind myself that the Gibson pickups are relatively low output pickups, which are usually clearer sounding than higher-output pickups, like those in the Ibanez.

Thanks for helping me think about the issues. Very first-world concerns, indeed, and I'm lucky to have them.