Slotting a bridge

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

It can be amusing to see how often people start from the assumption that the overriding goal of a major manufacturer of a product must be to improve their product, and conclude that any changes they make have been scientifically determined to make the product better. Then they go on to state that the big manufacturers have so much greater knowledge and resources that criticism by people who actually have to deal with the results from those changes must be misinformed. [This is very dangerous reasoning. Writ small, it may lead to a bridgeplate failure. Writ large, it may lead to a self-disempowered citizenry who believe that they must trust whatever those who have access to greater information and resources tell them.]

The problem is that the fundamental assumption behind this reasoning is false. The overriding goal of major manufacturers is to make a greater profit in a competitive market. Anyone who thinks that this is mostly done by making a better product is in thrall to a painfully naive picture of how real markets and businesses work.

I ran engineering for a $50M annual revenue business that grew to $300M in my tenure. We did it to make money using the only lever available to us, a better product at a fair price. Only someone who has never been in business would think the profit motive is at odds with product quality. I do agree the race to the bottom price can make working conditions for the employees pretty miserable.

Regardless, my point is I would not slot good continuous wood grain to add a bunch of corners under stress with a string ball against them. Having the slot in a replaceable pin makes a lot of sense too.

Since I've seen strings balls disappear into one or more slots of every slotted guitar I've ever owned, by your reasoning that is proof I'm right.

All I am really saying is the overwhelming number of guitars are manufactured without slots and from a mechanical standpoint it makes sense (apparently only to :~) me.

[redir]

I hate to say it but it really is only apparent to you

You are talking to some pretty high caliper luthiers right now in this discussion and I am not speaking of myself. So you are quite alone in this thinking.

It's hard if not almost impossible to change anyone's mind especially when they are so well grounded in their thoughts so I got nothing. Perhaps an actual peer reviewed experiment might sway your opinion but I don't know of anything done on it.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by redir

You are talking to some pretty high caliper luthiers right now in this discussion

Nah ...I know Howard uses a Mitutoyo vernier, but I am guessing most use a bog standard Chinese digital caliper ...


Sorry ... couldn't resist ...

[redir]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Nah ...I know Howard uses a Mitutoyo vernier, but I am guessing most use a bog standard Chinese digital caliper ...


Sorry ... couldn't resist ...

Hahahahha caibur calibore cali.. Oh I don't know.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by redir

I hate to say it but it really is only apparent to you

You are talking to some pretty high caliper luthiers right now in this discussion and I am not speaking of myself. So you are quite alone in this thinking.

It's hard if not almost impossible to change anyone's mind especially when they are so well grounded in their thoughts so I got nothing. Perhaps an actual peer reviewed experiment might sway your opinion but I don't know of anything done on it.

I guess what strikes the most about this thread is the absolute "I am right and let me quote you my resume" of some of the posts. Luckily I've made it through life without having that affliction (though I did at points follow them down the resume rabbit hole :~(. The simple, IMO is such a nice way to start a discussion of your thoughts and supporting theory.

And I'm amazed the greater crowd really thinks the major manufacturers don't know what they are doing. Clearly they must not represent a big opportunity for those guitar companies :~).

[Glen H]

Manufacturers increase profit by cutting costs not quality.

[Peter Wilcox]

It seems most agree that a major factor in bridge plate damage is plastic pins that bend and deform. If manufacturers would supply their instruments with these pins installed, the problem would be solved.

https://custominlay.com/shop?olsPage...-inlays&page=2

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by Glen H

Manufacturers increase profit by cutting costs not quality.

Only if their customers continue to buy the product and no competitor sees that as an opportunity. Business is almost entirely double bounded optimizations and focusing on one side of the boundary leads to the wrong conclusion.

[redir]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

I guess what strikes the most about this thread is the absolute "I am right and let me quote you my resume" of some of the posts. Luckily I've made it through life without having that affliction (though I did at points follow them down the resume rabbit hole :~(. The simple, IMO is such a nice way to start a discussion of your thoughts and supporting theory.

And I'm amazed the greater crowd really thinks the major manufacturers don't know what they are doing. Clearly they must not represent a big opportunity for those guitar companies :~).

I think we live in a day and age now where experts are no longer held in high regard, and I think that's a sad situation. What are we if not what are resume of experience tells others? I will never be a master luthier but I have built 70 instruments now and at my normal 4-5 per year I will reach the golden 100 one day. Having made more mistakes then anyone who is just starting off building guitars today I'd like to think that I could help them in some way based on my experience and from what I have learned from others over the years with far greater experience. But they might think all they need to do is 'Google it' too because who needs the advice from someone who's actually done it?

And I don't think that anyone here is saying that the manufacturers don't know what they are doing. In the case of Martin they know exactly what they are doing. They used to slot bridges and use solid pins and then went to straight holes with tapered slotted pins because for all practical purposes it's good enough to meet their quality standards and it's less expensive.

[packocrayons]

Given all this discussion, why bother with bridge pins at all? Drill a small (1/16 clears medium gauge bass strings) hole for each string. Drill it at an angle for better string break angle, and string the guitar from inside the soundhole. Sure it makes for more difficult stringing, but probably allows for a smaller bridge, and eliminating bridge pins reduces weight.

I'm tempted to try this on my next build. The advantages of a pinless bridge with the torque advantages of a pinned bridge. Throw brass eyelets for harps in there as well and the bridge plate issue is moot, and the bridge plate could possibly be made thinner if you have good bridge contact to the x-brace.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by redir

I think we live in a day and age now where experts are no longer held in high regard....

We live in what has been called "the Information Age". Never before have we had such easy access to so much information: we are being buried beneath it.

Very often, the information with which we are presented is diametrically opposed: one person presenting the information states it is black while another presents the same information as being white. Distinguishing between what is good or valid information and what is not has never been more difficult: it is increasingly difficult to determine who is and who is not an expert. All of us are experts and none of us are experts.

Faced with so much information - and so much opposing information - many who lack the rational basis to determine which is good/valid information and which is not simply give up and chose to believe whatever information they want to believe is good and valid. Truth, for example, becomes whatever one wants to believe it is: objective evidence becomes irrelevant. In modern parlance, anything that doesn't align with what one wants to believe becomes "fake news".

Suppose five people state, as Jon does, that slotting pin holes is "bad" and five other people state, as some of us have, that slotting pin holes is good. How does someone reading this discussion determine what is "the truth" regarding slotting pin holes, or not? Do they just throw up their hands and say, "Well, some say it's good and other's say it's bad, so it is unknowable and the truth is whatever I want to believe, whatever appeals to me"? How does a reader determine who's information is valid and who's is not? By what criteria do they determine that? Jon has 40 years of engineering/manufacturing experience. John has 40 years of guitar making and repairing - he's also a mechanical engineer. Who's "right"? Since each is presenting diametrically opposing information, they can't both be right. Both are "experts" in their respective fields - one in manufacturing et al and one in guitar making.

Often, people get tired of the issue and just simply chose whatever appeals to them, either because it is easier, or just because they want to believe a particular view point and don't want to be burdened by objective evidence. For many, objective evidence to support information is irrelevant: I believe it because I want to believe it and it must, therefore, be true.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by packocrayons

Given all this discussion, why bother with bridge pins at all? Drill a small (1/16 clears medium gauge bass strings) hole for each string. Drill it at an angle for better string break angle, and string the guitar from inside the soundhole. Sure it makes for more difficult stringing, but probably allows for a smaller bridge, and eliminating bridge pins reduces weight.

I'm tempted to try this on my next build. The advantages of a pinless bridge with the torque advantages of a pinned bridge. Throw brass eyelets for harps in there as well and the bridge plate issue is moot, and the bridge plate could possibly be made thinner if you have good bridge contact to the x-brace.

If you are unfamiliar with them, look up Power Pins, a commercial product for $50 that effectively accomplishes what you are describing using standard bridge pin holes.

[packocrayons]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

If you are unfamiliar with them, look up Power Pins, a commercial product for $50 that effectively accomplishes what you are describing using standard bridge pin holes.

Sort of what I'm thinking, but that still behaves like a pinless bridge plus the weight of all that hardware. I'm thinking of having the ball end still inside the guitar

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

If you are unfamiliar with them, look up Power Pins, a commercial product for $50 that effectively accomplishes what you are describing using standard bridge pin holes.

I actually tried a set of Power Pins. There were two flaws in my usage. First if the ball winding is not a perfect wrap it can get stuck in the Power Pin when you go to change strings. This happened to me more than once with the high E and B strings.

The other problem for me was the lock washers. Even tightened at the limit of what I thought prudent the screws inside the guitar would come loose.

They did not meet my expectations for install and forget.

I'll have to admit I had some fun being a bridge pin slot contrarian. There is no way I'd hold my nose at a Martin Authentic with slots!

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

We live in what has been called "the Information Age". Never before have we had such easy access to so much information: we are being buried beneath it.

Very often, the information with which we are presented is diametrically opposed: one person presenting the information states it is black while another presents the same information as being white. Distinguishing between what is good or valid information and what is not has never been more difficult: it is increasingly difficult to determine who is and who is not an expert. All of us are experts and none of us are experts.

Faced with so much information - and so much opposing information - many who lack the rational basis to determine which is good/valid information and which is not simply give up and chose to believe whatever information they want to believe is good and valid. Truth, for example, becomes whatever one wants to believe it is: objective evidence becomes irrelevant. In modern parlance, anything that doesn't align with what one wants to believe becomes "fake news".

Suppose five people state, as Jon does, that slotting pin holes is "bad" and five other people state, as some of us have, that slotting pin holes is good. How does someone reading this discussion determine what is "the truth" regarding slotting pin holes, or not? Do they just throw up their hands and say, "Well, some say it's good and other's say it's bad, so it is unknowable and the truth is whatever I want to believe, whatever appeals to me"? How does a reader determine who's information is valid and who's is not? By what criteria do they determine that? Jon has 40 years of engineering/manufacturing experience. John has 40 years of guitar making and repairing - he's also a mechanical engineer. Who's "right"? Since each is presenting diametrically opposing information, they can't both be right. Both are "experts" in their respective fields - one in manufacturing et al and one in guitar making.

Often, people get tired of the issue and just simply chose whatever appeals to them, either because it is easier, or just because they want to believe a particular view point and don't want to be burdened by objective evidence. For many, objective evidence to support information is irrelevant: I believe it because I want to believe it and it must, therefore, be true.

Excellent and true. When I read both opinions, being an experienced engineer myself, and respecting the opinions of both Jon and John, my mind went to a possible 3rd explanation. It may be possible that both are correct under specific circumstances. I can imagine slotted pins made of harder materials like bone causing split bridges. I can imagine slotted pins made of soft plastic causing little damage if folks are careful with their string changes. Personally, I’ve adopted the slotted bridge technique with Martin soft plastic unslotted pins for both of my D-28s and I’ve been happy with it. Being able to control break angle at the saddle is an added benefit.