Poplar tonewood?

[MoonSpruce]

Just wondering what you guys hear is the tone of poplar? A guitar store has a Taylor 114e and it seems even though it is "layered" the core of the back and sides are poplar:

https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitar...layered-walnut

Why does Taylor say "layered wood guitars won’t yield quite the same level of tonal complexity as an all-solid guitar"? Is it due to the construction, or because poplar is not a good tonewood?

[Dru Edwards]

Hi Moon, welcome to the AGF.

Taylor does a great job with layered (laminated) guitars. Bob Taylor has said before that he doesn't believe that the wood Taylor uses for their layered guitars makes a tonal difference. In this case, poplar isn't what Taylor is talking about when they're comparing it to all solid wood guitars but rather layered in general compared to all solid wood.

It's a beautiful Walnut Taylor.

[ascotia]

Originally Posted by MoonSpruce

Is it due to the construction, or because poplar is not a good tonewood?

Both. There is a general consensus that solid wood construction has better tonal properties than layered/laminate, but solid wood comes at a price. Layered backs and sides are cheaper to produce but can still sound amazing.

In the Taylor 100 and 200 series guitars, Taylor uses an arched back in lieu of using bracing on the back. The arched backs (in my opinion) project the sound out of the soundhole in a way which flat-backed guitars do not. So although you're trading away the solid wood construction, you're also gaining a structural alternative which helps to make up for the lost tonal quality of solid wood.

Additionally, layered wood guitars are generally regarded to be more resistant to changes in humidity. That doesn't mean they require zero maintenance, but you may not need to babysit them as much as a solid wood guitar. The rigidity and lower susceptibility to humidity also makes the tuning more stable in my opinion. I sometimes play daily for weeks at a time without ever needing to touch the tuners.

Long story short, I love my Taylor 214 and the layered construction shouldn't scare you away. They're an excellent stepping stone on the path toward a $2,000+ guitar.

[Robin, Wales]

Poplar is an interesting choice for the core wood of a 3 layer plywood, particularly with walnut as the outer woods. Poplar is at the softer end of the hardwoods. It is easy to work and has a long history as a tonewood for Appalachians dulcimers, as does walnut, cherry and chestnut.

I would think that walnut / poplar / walnut plywood would be quite mellow but dry as the back and sides of a guitar. And it is made from all N American woods.

I'm not quite so sure what Taylor means by plywood not yielding the tonal complexity of a solid wood back and sides. "Tonal complexity" is not all it is cracked up to be, and for some players it is the last thing that they want. Solid wood back and sides don't always sound better than plywood

Putting plywood just into the "cheaper than solid" box misses some important properties of the material. Its stability has already been mentioned. Additionally, you can get up to 20 times more usable board for guitar building from a tree if you rotary peel it for making plywood than if you quarter saw it.

[MoonSpruce]

Originally Posted by ascotia

In the Taylor 100 and 200 series guitars, Taylor uses an arched back in lieu of using bracing on the back. The arched backs (in my opinion) project the sound out of the soundhole in a way which flat-backed guitars do not. So although you're trading away the solid wood construction, you're also gaining a structural alternative which helps to make up for the lost tonal quality of solid wood.

So do you mean to say the two thin layers of Walnut veneer will cause the tonal quality of the solid poplar wood to be lost? If it wasn't poplar, but a piece of Rosewood in the middle, would having two pieces of Walnut on the outside destroy the tone (is it because of the glue)? If Taylor didn't put the Walnut sheets outside the poplar, then maybe poplar would actually be a good sounding tonewood?

[Robin, Wales]

The "problem" with poplar is that it doesn't finish well. It will take paint but not lacquer or polish. That's probably why it has been avoided by guitar makers. The old dulcimer makers would paint their poplar instruments black using tobacco barn paint.

[J Patrick]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

The "problem" with poplar is that it doesn't finish well. It will take paint but not lacquer or polish. That's probably why it has been avoided by guitar makers. The old dulcimer makers would paint their poplar instruments black using tobacco barn paint.

...don’t know where you got the idea that poplar doesn’t finish well. In the world of ultra high end finish carpentry we used custom milled poplar exclusively for painted trim because it finished so beautifully.....it’s quite close grained and does not require fillers to produce a smooth surface...

...of course it is generally quite unattractive due to its tendency towards greenish hues but there are unique pieces that can be attractive....it’s mostly not gonna look good under a clear lacquer finish but that’s not because it can’t take the finish...I have on occasion used clear lacquers on poplar when putting together utility shelving and it took a lacquer coat as well as any other wood I have used.....better than some...a few years back I built a poplar bodied Stratocaster that I finished in Dakota Red nitrocellulose lacquer...very nice results...

...I think the main reason it’s overlooked as a tonewood is that it’s very soft and most of it doesn’t produce much tap tone....it’s greatest strength in my opinion is how stable it is...which probably does make it a good core wood when combined with a harder more reflective outer ply...

[OKCtodd71]

FWIW, which is probably very little, poplar is probably the most common wood used to make the case of a harpsichord. Given the complexity, size, bulk of materials and skills needed to build a fine instrument, a luthier who builds harpsichords will laugh in your face when you tell them what you paid for a custom guitar.

[merlin666]

In the 70s a lot of R&D went into the development of the first carbon fibre tops by Ovation. They used scientific methods as well as feedback from the top guitar players at the time, and in the end a layered carbon top with a poplar core was the result. The guitars are still sold under the Adamas brand. So yeah I have no doubts that a quality laminate guitar with poplar core can be as good if not better than many solid wood guitars.

[The Bard Rocks]

Originally Posted by J Patrick

...don’t know where you got the idea that poplar doesn’t finish well. In the world of ultra high end finish carpentry we used custom milled poplar exclusively for painted trim because it finished so beautifully.....it’s quite close grained and does not require fillers to produce a smooth surface...

...of course it is generally quite unattractive due to its tendency towards greenish hues but there are unique pieces that can be attractive....it’s mostly not gonna look good under a clear lacquer finish but that’s not because it can’t take the finish...I have on occasion used clear lacquers on poplar when putting together utility shelving and it took a lacquer coat as well as any other wood I have used.....better than some...a few years back I built a poplar bodied Stratocaster that I finished in Dakota Red nitrocellulose lacquer...very nice results...

...I think the main reason it’s overlooked as a tonewood is that it’s very soft and most of it doesn’t produce much tap tone....it’s greatest strength in my opinion is how stable it is...which probably does make it a good core wood when combined with a harder more reflective outer ply...

I concur. Well said.

[ascotia]

Originally Posted by MoonSpruce

So do you mean to say the two thin layers of Walnut veneer will cause the tonal quality of the solid poplar wood to be lost? If it wasn't poplar, but a piece of Rosewood in the middle, would having two pieces of Walnut on the outside destroy the tone (is it because of the glue)? If Taylor didn't put the Walnut sheets outside the poplar, then maybe poplar would actually be a good sounding tonewood?

I think of the poplar as just one of three layers rather than being a 'solid' core. If you have a layered rosewood/walnut/etc back and sides, most people will focus on the veneer rather than the core material.

I'm not an expert on the subject, but the reason they use poplar as a filler rather than solid poplar is because it is not a highly desirable tonewood for reasons that were previously discussed. It's relatively soft and it may not have an attractive appearance. However, when it goes through Taylor's layering process, it looks just as good a solid wood guitar and I'd wager that it's stronger and more durable than solid wood.

Whether layered wood sounds better or worse is completely subjective, but some layered guitars certainly sound better than some solid wood guitars, and vice versa.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by J Patrick

...don’t know where you got the idea that poplar doesn’t finish well. In the world of ultra high end finish carpentry we used custom milled poplar exclusively for painted trim because it finished so beautifully.....it’s quite close grained and does not require fillers to produce a smooth surface...

...of course it is generally quite unattractive due to its tendency towards greenish hues but there are unique pieces that can be attractive....it’s mostly not gonna look good under a clear lacquer finish but that’s not because it can’t take the finish...I have on occasion used clear lacquers on poplar when putting together utility shelving and it took a lacquer coat as well as any other wood I have used.....better than some...a few years back I built a poplar bodied Stratocaster that I finished in Dakota Red nitrocellulose lacquer...very nice results...

...I think the main reason it’s overlooked as a tonewood is that it’s very soft and most of it doesn’t produce much tap tone....it’s greatest strength in my opinion is how stable it is...which probably does make it a good core wood when combined with a harder more reflective outer ply...

Thanks, I didn't know that. I took my impression of the finishing difficulties of poplar when used for musical instruments from the interview records I had read concerning traditional dulcimer makers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I guess modern finishes are a bit different to what they had available back then!

I agree it is a soft hardwood and would "ding" easier than many of the more commonly used back and side woods.

Regarding laminates: I think that the outer ply that lines the inside of the guitar body quite possibly has an effect on tone? I only offer this as a point of discussion as I have not seen anything written about its effect anywhere. The insides of guitars are raw wood and I wonder if the sound absorbancy or reflective nature of that surface makes a difference? The Yamaha Fg800, Fg820 and Fg830 being an example of this effect?

[Rmccamey]

"of course it is generally quite unattractive due to its tendency towards greenish hues but there are unique pieces that can be attractive"

I think the greens in Poplar would make an excellent looking guitar. Anyone have a guitar (or other instrument) with Poplar b&s they would show off for us?

[27R]

Have played some exceptional electrics made from poplar. Very lightweight.

One was a high-end boutique build lacquered in a very classic nitro finish so to say it doesn't take lacquer isn't correct.

[Rudy4]

Taylor's ability to produce a good sounding instrument from layered construction has a lot to do with the ability to form the back into a arch that is stable but doesn't need additional bracing. This helps produce a lightweight and resonant instrument.

The detail about Taylor's use of poplar as a core material that's often overlooked is the appearance when viewed from the side. Poplar is very uniform with a non-distinct grain and that helps the edge look more uniform around the guitar's perimeter. Many other species of wood can change drastically in appearance as the wood is viewed from the side of the grain, changing to end grain as the view is changed.

This is important because Taylor uses the edge view of it's layered back plates to create a visual similarity to actual binding. The combination of wood choices and substantial veneer thickness goes a long way to producing a guitar that is unbound but still looks good and has the ability to resist damage to the outer veneer layer.

The same characteristics that permit them to do that also contribute to a layered wood that has superior tonal properties to a more cheaply produced laminated instrument.