The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Custom Shop

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
  #61  
Old 11-09-2015, 07:10 AM
j. Kinnaird's Avatar
j. Kinnaird j. Kinnaird is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,614
Default

beautiful rosette Tim. Im coming around to your laminated side philosophy as well. I can just imagine the increased stability and crack resistance the laminates give you and how much easier it is to bend the sides when they are thinned to half normal thickness (give or take) Im thinking of some really stubborn rosewood sides that wanted to crack rather than bend. Should have taken it down and laminated those sides.
  #62  
Old 11-09-2015, 07:34 AM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,208
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by j. Kinnaird View Post
beautiful rosette Tim. Im coming around to your laminated side philosophy as well. I can just imagine the increased stability and crack resistance the laminates give you and how much easier it is to bend the sides when they are thinned to half normal thickness (give or take) Im thinking of some really stubborn rosewood sides that wanted to crack rather than bend. Should have taken it down and laminated those sides.
John,
Give it a try and I think you might end up being a convert? Outer sides are .060" - .070" and inner sides are .030" - .020" or combinations of .060" / .030" or .070" / .020" so it still yields .090" total thickness. I bend both sets at the same time in my bender and then use solvent based epoxy to join them. I know a couple builders who use water based PVA's but I have always feared cupping and stick to West or TAP adhesives.

As to the stability and crack resistance, its off the charts. I have an old set of double RW sides that SOMEBODY bent backwards , which we keep around the shop for demo purposes. We take these and hit them on the corner of a work bench, to simulate what might happen when you bump a guitar on the corner of a coffee table and the sides don't crack, split or even DENT!!! We have hit these sides HUNDREDS of times on sharp bench corners and now the bench corners are rounded over from the pounding they have taken over the years. You can throw the sides down on concrete as hard as you can and nothing happens to them other than they bounce. Its pretty amazing to see.

Feel free to send me an email if you have any questions getting started.
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
  #63  
Old 11-09-2015, 07:39 AM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,208
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eire View Post
Here's a vote for Tim growing his hair long enough to create a braid down his back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB'sox View Post
Oh please no...that is one of a very few things that my lovely SO has promised I would never do!!! I have a feeling Mary may be in the same camp.
No worries there, Mary would flip out. Besides, at this stage in life I am all about a low maintenance lifestyle and I couldn't imagine carrying a comb. It would just complicate my life waaaaay too much
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
  #64  
Old 11-09-2015, 08:22 AM
j. Kinnaird's Avatar
j. Kinnaird j. Kinnaird is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,614
Default

Thanks for the insight Tim. Im assuming that you have some sort of bending form special designed for this process?
  #65  
Old 11-09-2015, 10:17 AM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,208
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by j. Kinnaird View Post
Thanks for the insight Tim. Im assuming that you have some sort of bending form special designed for this process?



Yes, its a solid form made of 7 layers of 3/4" particle board. Glue is applied to both side lams:





Wax paper is placed over the form and then the two glued sides are placed over the wax paper:





Blue foam construction grade sill plate insulation is placed over the side lams. The foam helps to apply even clamp force.





1-3/8" holes are bored in the clamping form to accept C-clamps:





The outer clamp caul goes over the entire sandwich. The clamp caul is two [laminated] .090" scrap wood pieces 33" x 5". Then I glue 1" x 1" x 5" wood bars over the outside of the clamp caul to which the C-clamps rest on.





Ready for the clamps:






Apply clamps and let the adhesive cure 24 hours.





Clean up with DA:




Make sure the wax paper is >1/2" wider than the form so it will catch the glue squeeze out from between the side lams.

I leave the sides long so I can trim to final length after the lams are dry.

I also make the inner lam about a 1/4" wider than the outer side in case it slips during clamp up. Then I sand the inner lam flush, on the belt sander, with the outer lam after the glue has cured.
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
  #66  
Old 11-09-2015, 10:52 AM
mikealpine's Avatar
mikealpine mikealpine is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,928
Default

Once gain, I am really impressed with Tim's willingness to share processes. It seems, at least on this forum, our respected luthiers are very willing to help each other. It is a remarkable display of generosity and respect. I've seen examples of bracing and other construction methods being freely offered, and I think it is wonderful of you all, competing for a small pool of custom-build dollars, to work so closely with each other, for the good of the craft and benefitting those of us who commission from you.
__________________
---------------------------------------

2013 Joel Stehr Dreadnought - Carpathian/Malaysian BW
2014 RainSong H-OM1000N2
2017 Rainsong BI-WS1000N2
2013 Chris Ensor Concert - Port Orford Cedar/Wenge
1980ish Takamine EF363 complete with irreplaceable memories
A bunch of electrics (too many!!)
  #67  
Old 11-09-2015, 12:38 PM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,208
Default

Mike,

This reminds me of a statement that my father used to make to me, "Son, don't let your britches get so big that you forget where you came from". We all started in this craft somewhere and with varying abilities. I fondly remember those early years of building BTI (before the internet) often times struggling with no one to turn to for advice except good old trial and more often than not ... error. Every once in a great while our experimental errors may have resulted in a great and newly discovered option; Sound ports, wedges, arm bevels, off set sound holes, beautiful new inlays to hide a slip of the chisel Just another reason that I too am thankful to be a member of a community of builders who openly share knowledge and past experiences with each other.

Even though John has oodles of experience building, many of us old dogs can still learn a new trick every now and then from each other. The internet has made it so easy to Google or YouTube an instant response to about any question you are seeking an answer for. But its also nice to bring up questions that can be openly discussed and debated.

Keep in mind that there are LOTS of ways to build a great guitar and we are not so naive to think our methods are the only way that will work. We will continue to openly share the ways that have worked well for us and I'll remain open and willing to explore other new building methodologies as they surface.
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
  #68  
Old 11-09-2015, 02:14 PM
Treenewt Treenewt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 3,664
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikealpine View Post
Once gain, I am really impressed with Tim's willingness to share processes. It seems, at least on this forum, our respected luthiers are very willing to help each other. It is a remarkable display of generosity and respect. I've seen examples of bracing and other construction methods being freely offered, and I think it is wonderful of you all, competing for a small pool of custom-build dollars, to work so closely with each other, for the good of the craft and benefitting those of us who commission from you.
I agree 100%! Tim and many other experienced luthiers are very free with the knowledge they have accumulated over the years, and it's wonderful to be on the receiving end, if a little like drinking from a fire hydrant! Always blessed by the things Tim shares!
__________________
Treenewt

Larrivée OM-03
  #69  
Old 11-09-2015, 03:28 PM
j. Kinnaird's Avatar
j. Kinnaird j. Kinnaird is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,614
Default

Tim thanks for that reply. I appreciate the insight and the trouble you took to document and share your techniques. I for sure can always learn something new about the craft. It's amazing how introverted/inbred your ideas can get working in a one man shop and how enlightening it can be to watch someone else tackle similar problems.

Thanks for sharing
  #70  
Old 11-10-2015, 07:35 AM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,208
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by j. Kinnaird View Post
It's amazing how introverted/inbred your ideas can get working in a one man shop and how enlightening it can be to watch someone else tackle similar problems.

Thanks for sharing
Glad I could be of some help.

I couldn't agree more with your statement John. Its easy to get stalled in our own unique building methods, especially when you don't have another like mind to share ideas with. That is what's so wonderful about the net as we openly share ideas, right, wrong or indifferent?

When other builders post pictures of their in-process work, I get as much thrill just snooping around their shop in the background at looking at machines, jigs, fixtures, finish, adhesives and the like. Its a great way to spark new ideas that I may want to explore.
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
  #71  
Old 11-10-2015, 07:43 AM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,208
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve909 View Post
Just thought I should finally chime in. I am the lucky soul that this wonderful Guitar is being built for. I thank my lucky stars that brought me to the McKnights-Tim and Mary. I talked with many luthiers about my dream guitar and after meeting Tim and Mary they were the obvious choice to build my "heirloom" guitar. They understand what it means to me. It has been a long process but one that will be totally worth it. Tim and Mary have become much more than my Luthiers-they are friends. You won't find a better pair. Thanks Tim and Mary!
Steve,
Its been our pleasure working with you sharing and exploring new ideas as we labor in unison to create a pair of very special guitars that will be passed down in your family as heirloom instruments.

I feel the need to share a little background on your statement above "It has been a long process but one that will be totally worth it." The process, that Steve refers to, has been on the back burner for some 4 or 5 years as we have patiently waited for the Olive wood to slowly air dry in California and then finally in our climate controlled wood room here in Ohio, to an acceptable range that we could finally build with. I remain confident that the waiting will be more than worth it in the end!
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
  #72  
Old 11-10-2015, 08:25 AM
lizzard lizzard is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Woodstock, Illinois
Posts: 1,371
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
Steve,
Its been our pleasure working with you sharing and exploring new ideas as we labor in unison to create a pair of very special guitars that will be passed down in your family as heirloom instruments.

I feel the need to share a little background on your statement above "It has been a long process but one that will be totally worth it." The process, that Steve refers to, has been on the back burner for some 4 or 5 years as we have patiently waited for the Olive wood to slowly air dry in California and then finally in our climate controlled wood room here in Ohio, to an acceptable range that we could finally build with. I remain confident that the waiting will be more than worth it in the end!
Really cool, man. Nothing else to say....
__________________
The Electric
1999 PRS McCarty - Dark Cherry Sunburst, Solid BRW Neck and FB.
Hundreds of shows, enjoying retirement.

2018 Gene Liberty Custom - Iced Tea Style burst, dc/P90s/stop tail/ neck thru - ALL American woods - due any day

The Acoustics
Julian Gaffney #11. Coco under engelmann MD
Tom Doerr - Trinity. Flamed Maple under Swiss
Tom Doerr - M/D. Braz under Red (due 2020)
  #73  
Old 11-10-2015, 08:34 AM
Neil K Walk Neil K Walk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SWPA
Posts: 6,100
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lizzard View Post
Really cool, man. Nothing else to say....
Yeah, they're good people.
__________________
~ Neil

2013 OLF MJ (DIY build, western red cedar, Honduran mahogany)
2012 McKnight McUkulele
2009 Martin D-16GT
2006 Larrivee OM-03R
1998 Fender American Standard Stratocaster (Natural ash)
  #74  
Old 11-11-2015, 11:01 AM
Mary's Avatar
Mary Mary is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: North Central Ohio
Posts: 8,967
Default

I like that our closer knit AGF family members inform me to sneak in here now and then.

Steve, thank you so much for your compliments. We will continue to enjoy you and your guitar build. It's a pretty wood with a clean fresh fragrance and you have been a cinch to work for.

Steve, Neil (Kwakatak) and Kurt (Eire), you three have probably been the ones who have experienced getting to know us in ways nobody else has ever or will ever.

To tell the others, Steve and his wife share something in common with us that made him feel like family long before we were considered their build team. As soon as I learned of that detail it made me smile inside and out and it gave me a little quirky kick in my step. I began having fun picking on Steve as if he already belonged to us. Good thing he came on board the McGit team!

Kurt has been to our shop a few times. The first time he visited he was up front and said had no real intentions of purchasing a guitar from us or anyone at that point. After a day of hanging out at the McKnight Guitar shop he agreed to be ours. Maybe it had something to do with our apple dumpling conversation! A few years later he showed added intentions when he signed a "contract" that wouldn't stand up in any court of law. But I still have it on file just in case I need it some day!!

And then there is Neil. Neil isn't a customer, but he has attended every annual McJam at the McKnight Guitar shop thus far. Ever watch CHEERS on tv? Neil is our Norm. Sometimes he shows up a little late, but regardless of what everyone is doing all the regulars yell out, "NEIL!"

There are a few of you in this thread who accepted us as your luthier team. To each of you I want to thank you for trusting us and letting us have a good time with you. We have fun building for you and you get a guitar in the end. What's not to like about this process?

And to you, Mr. Tim (the hermit with the white thing y'all have spoken of) thank you for continuing to let me hang with you in the McGit shop. Thanks, Tim, for being mine and sharing you, your work, time, and yes, even your growls with me. YOU are most loved.

OK, y'all... carry on. I'll take more pictures for Tim to share when we get back into the shop.
__________________
********************

🐟 ... make a joyful noise ...

http://www.mcknightguitars.com
http://myspace.com/mcknightguitars
http://www.youtube.com/McKnightGuitars
http://facebook.com/mcknightguitars



McJam 2019 - AGF “Calendar” to learn of ALL upcoming events
https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/calendar.php
  #75  
Old 11-12-2015, 10:02 AM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,208
Default

The only downside I have found, building with double sides, is the adhesive migration THROUGH the sides. It usually presents more on the inner side surface, since it is a much thinner ply than the outer side. The clamping pressure forces the adhesive deep into the wood, especially on open pore woods. This leaves extra work, after the adhesive cures, to sand the excess adhesive permeation off.



On the positive side, the two lams are bonded permanently together, forever.
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
Closed Thread

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Custom Shop

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=