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  #91  
Old 03-19-2015, 09:49 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Distinguish between construction and fine woodworking/cabinet making. They involve different knowledge and skills.
exactly what i was reaching for. Thanks Charles.
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  #92  
Old 03-19-2015, 10:04 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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ok today it was reinforced that i should glue on the neck before shaping, fretting, etc. lol. i glued on the neck today using the nail under the fretboard method (pic 1) but was still off a smidge so i will have to sand once again after it is dried. it is really a small amount. i can probably just round the fretboard to the neck and be ok but the setting of the fretboard was a smidge off so while it glued in place it glued just a hair off at the nut end.

also the sound hole end is a hair off also besides not being well rounded. (pic 3). not too bad and i am ok with it being my 1st build so time to move on.

to do it i marked with pencil area between frets opposed sides and ends. i think i used a 3/32 bit and drilled small hole in neck sides. i took a nail and used my nippers to clips a couple small pieces off. i fit the pieces in the neck and laid the fretboard on top where i wanted it to make depression mark in fretboard. then i drilled fretboard with same bit. then i did dry fit. next i tape the truss rod so i don't put glue all over it (pic 4 & 5). then i put glue on neck and back of fretboard. i put the fretboard on the neck and used clamps to hold it tight. for clamps as much as possible i went between the frets so i am not flattening frets themselves. i leave 1/4" at top of neck for nut later on. i clean off excess glue after clamping with wet paper towel. i am left with pic 6.

we'll see how it comes out. tomorrow is snow again here to probably Saturday i will check it.

i think after this i will sand fretboard to match neck what little left i have to. then i have nut, any veneers, tuners, varnish, & bridge, tailpiece. the nut is plastic (i just took it out of bag today). i suppose i need to get a better one.



pic 1


pic 2


pic 3


pic 4


pic 5


pic 6
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  #93  
Old 03-20-2015, 06:41 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by Twilo123 View Post
i glued on the neck today using the nail under the fretboard method (pic 1) but was still off ...
A couple of things for future reference:

1. No one mentioned anything about a "nail under the fretboard method". What I mentioned explicitly was for you to remove two frets and drill one hole through each. Through those two holes, drive a small - small - nail (brad). The purpose of this is to position, precisely, where you want the fretboard to go and keep it there during the gluing operation. To do so, the fretboard is clamped, dry, in the exact position you want. Then the two small nails are driven through the two holes into the neck, fixing the fretboard's position in a repeatable way.

The nails you used are much larger than necessary/ideal. By trying to transfer the position to the underside of the fretboard and then drilling a second set of holes, you introduce the likelihood of positional error.

It is necessary to place the nails in a position and depth so that the holes produced do not come through the finished neck profile.

2. There is no need to mask the surface of the fretboard to prevent glue from interfering with the operation of the truss rod. Simply don't use excess glue when gluing the fretboard.

3. In most areas of woodworking, when one wants to clamp a large surface area, one uses "cauls" to distribute the clamping pressure and prevent localized deformation of the pieces being clamped. Cauls can be made of plywood, MDF (medium density fibreboard) or solid wood.

In the case of a gluing caul for the fretboard, it also helps to ensure the fingerboard is clamped flat. I drill two holes to accommodate the heads of the small nails and then remove the nails after the clamps are removed. For the caul, I usually use a 2x4 that has been planed flat and trimmed to the contour of the fretboard.

4. Given that the body of the instrument is mostly thin wood, wherever possible, one should avoid clamping across the outside of the instrument and crushing/deforming the thin plates. Ideally, one would clamp the end of the fingerboard through the sound hole, using clamping cauls on the interior as necessary to work around the interior braces. Clamping outside in the area of the neck block is fine provided that everything fits well and will not cause a bump or a depression of the fretboard. If the fretboard is not flat, the instrument won't play very well.


It looks like your instrument is coming along well. Keep at it. When you get to making your dulcimer, glue the already-fretted fretboard to the top using cauls, then use masking tap to glue the top assembly to the sides. You won't be able to easily hammer frets after the instrument is assembled.
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  #94  
Old 03-20-2015, 07:11 AM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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i was basing it off some videos i found on youtube Charles; not what you suggested. you had said i already missed doing your method so i youtube for another.

for the fretboard not flat issue should i have sand down the top to make it flat? it looks like the top was slightly raised. it looked like they would be flat when i did dry fit but after gluing the top was slightly raised.

for the caul when you say trimmed to the contour of the fretboard do you mean radiused based on the fretboard radius?

so for fretboard assembly i should punch in frets, glue to neck, then do all my filing and sanding? is that the proper order of events?

this is what i based my method off of (look like 1st one has the caul you mentioned)




Last edited by Twilo123; 03-20-2015 at 07:20 AM.
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  #95  
Old 03-20-2015, 07:37 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by Twilo123 View Post
i was basing it off some videos i found on youtube Charles; not what you suggested. you had said i already missed doing your method so i youtube for another.
Fair enough. It illustrates my point that there are many methods, none of which are "right" or "wrong". There are, however, definitely some that are faster, easier and more accurate than others.

The beauty of it all is that you can choose whatever methods you like. Best of luck with your builds.
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  #96  
Old 03-20-2015, 07:42 AM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Fair enough. It illustrates my point that there are many methods, none of which are "right" or "wrong". There are, however, definitely some that are faster, easier and more accurate than others.

The beauty of it all is that you can choose whatever methods you like. Best of luck with your builds.
as long as i learn something from them i get better each time. like your advice after i post helps me to figure out what i did wrong and fix for next time. like i said earlier youtube is a double edge sword. it can help you and it can help cause issues you would have never thought about on your own sometimes lol.
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  #97  
Old 03-20-2015, 07:49 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by Twilo123 View Post
for the fretboard not flat issue should i have sand down the top to make it flat? it looks like the top was slightly raised. it looked like they would be flat when i did dry fit but after gluing the top was slightly raised.
If you glue a thin (1/4") piece of wood across several pieces of wood that are not level, the thin piece of wood won't be level either, or it will have gaps underneath it to accommodate the lack of level surface to which it was glued.

One advantage of truing the fingerboard after installation is the ability to ensure the fretboard is flat - or whatever contour you want to have - along its length. You can't really do that if the frets are already installed.

Quote:
for the caul when you say trimmed to the contour of the fretboard do you mean radiused based on the fretboard radius?
Sorry, I should have been more clear. No, the caul should be the same width as the fretboard, if not just slightly less. The caul should not overhand the tapered fretboard, else it will interfere with glue clean-up, which should be done before the glue is fully hard - usually about 10 minutes after clamping with Titebond or similar glue. It is quick, easy and clean to remove Titebond-type glue while it is still gummy, rather than wait until it is rock-hard.

Quote:
so for fretboard assembly i should punch in frets, glue to neck, then do all my filing and sanding? is that the proper order of events?
For which instrument?

For a dulcimer, install the frets prior to gluing the fretboard to the top. Glue the fretboard to the top prior to attaching it to the sides. Hammering frets into a thin-walled hollow box isn't very successful. It is much easier to install, trim and dress the frets before assembly.

Last edited by charles Tauber; 03-20-2015 at 07:55 AM.
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  #98  
Old 03-20-2015, 08:02 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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like i said earlier youtube is a double edge sword.
I suggest choosing better sources, rather than random search results. If Youtube is going to be your primary source, I suggest Robbie O'Brien's videos are a better starting point.

A good source for education on handtools is Rob Cosman. There are lots of others as well.
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  #99  
Old 03-20-2015, 08:31 AM
redir redir is offline
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I think the masking tape over the truss rod method goes back to Sloan's book or one of the very early guitar building manuals. I did that on the very first guitar I built and when I went to unclamp it the next morning it dawned on me that I forgot to remove the tape LOL.

The purpose is to slather glue all over it, remove the tape then clamp and you should have in theory just enough glue. But as was mentioned, it's not necessary. I think when people first start they either use too much glue or too little. I always used too much. These days when I glue up I hardly get any squeeze out, just enough to know you did it right.
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  #100  
Old 03-20-2015, 08:44 AM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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Originally Posted by redir View Post
I think the masking tape over the truss rod method goes back to Sloan's book or one of the very early guitar building manuals. I did that on the very first guitar I built and when I went to unclamp it the next morning it dawned on me that I forgot to remove the tape LOL.

The purpose is to slather glue all over it, remove the tape then clamp and you should have in theory just enough glue. But as was mentioned, it's not necessary. I think when people first start they either use too much glue or too little. I always used too much. These days when I glue up I hardly get any squeeze out, just enough to know you did it right.
Yes, I asked my first guitar build instructor about how to remove the excess glue after glue application and if it was good to use a roller for that purpose. His answer, "Just put on the right amount of glue!"

There should be squeeze out. This is confirmation that the glue has been applied 100%. But there should be little enough squeeze out that it is not a pain to clean.
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  #101  
Old 03-20-2015, 09:51 AM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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Originally Posted by redir View Post
I think the masking tape over the truss rod method goes back to Sloan's book or one of the very early guitar building manuals. I did that on the very first guitar I built and when I went to unclamp it the next morning it dawned on me that I forgot to remove the tape LOL.

The purpose is to slather glue all over it, remove the tape then clamp and you should have in theory just enough glue. But as was mentioned, it's not necessary. I think when people first start they either use too much glue or too little. I always used too much. These days when I glue up I hardly get any squeeze out, just enough to know you did it right.
yes i removed the tape before putting the fretboard on
thankfully i got that much right lol
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  #102  
Old 03-20-2015, 09:53 AM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ned Milburn View Post
Yes, I asked my first guitar build instructor about how to remove the excess glue after glue application and if it was good to use a roller for that purpose. His answer, "Just put on the right amount of glue!"

There should be squeeze out. This is confirmation that the glue has been applied 100%. But there should be little enough squeeze out that it is not a pain to clean.
for the fretboard i actually went back to the plastic roller i had shown in my previous posts. it took a couple of layers since the 1st layer kept sticking to the roller itself but it applied even glue along the fretboard. for the neck i used my finger and pulled the tape off right before putting the fretboard on.
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  #103  
Old 03-20-2015, 10:29 AM
redir redir is offline
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Originally Posted by Twilo123 View Post
yes i removed the tape before putting the fretboard on
thankfully i got that much right lol
Well it's funny. That was my first guitar and it's going on 25 years now. I still have it just for sentimental reasons, it actually still sounds ok but it looks awful. Anyway the tape is still under there
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  #104  
Old 03-20-2015, 10:58 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ned Milburn View Post
Even though it is about building classical guitars, I'd recommend "Making Master Guitars".

http://www.amazon.com/Making-Master-.../dp/0709048092

It shows how to build a guitar with mostly just hand-tools. If you can build a guitar by hand, then any power tool that speeds, simplifies, or makes the processes more accurate and repeatably accurate is just icing on the cake. And if you can do it all by hand, then the world is your oyster and you have proof that you can build pretty much anything if you understand the design.
not a cheap book by any means (feel like i am back in college lol) but i purchased it along with the other 3 people i mentioned. funny only 1 was available digital. the other 3 are only available hard copy. thank you for the reference.
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  #105  
Old 03-21-2015, 09:54 AM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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question: the instructions have me shave down the plastic nut and glue it on. no nut file and no grooves for the wiring. is this true for bouzouki? or should i get some nut file and make the grooves like a guitar?
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