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  #76  
Old 03-18-2015, 03:46 PM
DonmoyerM DonmoyerM is offline
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Originally Posted by Twilo123 View Post
Thanks for the words of encouragement Mike! i am just trying to get something playable for this first time. like i said earlier i have absolutely zero experience with woodworking, glues, and power tools. so this is all a new experience for me.

the bloodwood i like also Mike but it is not a full size so i have to checkerboard my headstock in that case. the 1st set listed are specifically headstock size. the 2nd set that includes bloodwood is a little less than half size. so maybe i will do 2 if i do bloodwood if possible. bloodwood and?

I was in the same boat only a few years ago, little woodworking knowledge, guitar building experience etc. The mistakes keep coming but you always are learning and having fun. I'm sure you already have the next build in mind .

And I'm not sure if I fully understand the "half size" issue...but if I hear you right - the bloodwood veneer comes in 2" widths or so? If this is the case You could always join 2 pieces to create 4" wide veneer (similar to joining top and back plates) . But, joining 2 pieces may not give you the symmetry of a truly bookmatched veneer.

Buying a pre-made veneer isnt a bad idea. Although it may slow down your process etc. Here's a link to a bloodwood headplate from LMI

http://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-...odwood/flypage

Also there are many options to pick from LMI... including mahogany to match your top plate..? so many options eh ..lol

I hope I understood your question correctly... If your thinking 1/32" thick "underlay/layer" veneers just let me know

Mike
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  #77  
Old 03-18-2015, 09:24 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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Originally Posted by DonmoyerM View Post
I was in the same boat only a few years ago, little woodworking knowledge, guitar building experience etc. The mistakes keep coming but you always are learning and having fun. I'm sure you already have the next build in mind .

And I'm not sure if I fully understand the "half size" issue...but if I hear you right - the bloodwood veneer comes in 2" widths or so? If this is the case You could always join 2 pieces to create 4" wide veneer (similar to joining top and back plates) . But, joining 2 pieces may not give you the symmetry of a truly bookmatched veneer.

Buying a pre-made veneer isnt a bad idea. Although it may slow down your process etc. Here's a link to a bloodwood headplate from LMI

http://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-...odwood/flypage

Also there are many options to pick from LMI... including mahogany to match your top plate..? so many options eh ..lol

I hope I understood your question correctly... If your thinking 1/32" thick "underlay/layer" veneers just let me know

Mike
yea i was looking at lmi. their headstock veneers are here. they were the ebony, maple, maple flame pic i posted
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/index.php
Headplates measure:
7 1/2" x 3 1/2" x .023" or .039"
19cm x 8.89cm x .6mm or 1mm.

the 2nd pic i posted was wood veneers
https://www.lmii.com/products/mostly...s/wood-veneers
Veneer, Bloodwood, 3.375" x 35" x .023" (.6mm)

based on those sizes it looks like the bloodwood is around half the width of the headstock size so i will need 2 pieces spliced together...so i don't know if i should get a couple colors and try to do some kind of rosette/stitch piece on the headstock or just split 2 pieces of bloodwood joined.
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  #78  
Old 03-18-2015, 09:36 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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took the binding tape off today (pic 1-3). in pic 3 closeup you can see glue bled out and yellowed the wood. i take it i just sand this off so i used 150 grit and sanded out the yellow. most of it was on the bottom like that. there were some small spots on top which i sanded also. for the most part it fit really well. i did notice by the top near the neck there is a small space. it will probably be fine as is but i will probably look to put some wood dust in there and seal with glue. even if i don't i think i am ok (hopefully lol).

also i noticed if i hold the fretboard flat against the top it angles slightly up when i get to the other end near the headstock (pic 4 & 5). not sure if this is normal. could be the bow of the neck and i will fix later on with the truss rod? did i miss some levaling measurement between neck and top?


pic 1


pic 2


pic 3


pic 4


pic 5
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  #79  
Old 03-18-2015, 09:53 PM
DonmoyerM DonmoyerM is offline
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Originally Posted by Twilo123 View Post
yea i was looking at lmi. their headstock veneers are here. they were the ebony, maple, maple flame pic i posted
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/index.php
Headplates measure:
7 1/2" x 3 1/2" x .023" or .039"
19cm x 8.89cm x .6mm or 1mm.

the 2nd pic i posted was wood veneers
https://www.lmii.com/products/mostly...s/wood-veneers
Veneer, Bloodwood, 3.375" x 35" x .023" (.6mm)

based on those sizes it looks like the bloodwood is around half the width of the headstock size so i will need 2 pieces spliced together...so i don't know if i should get a couple colors and try to do some kind of rosette/stitch piece on the headstock or just split 2 pieces of bloodwood joined.
I feel like the wood veneers your looking at from LMI are more suited to someone who may make their own purfling lines, etc. But taking a quick look at some of your pictures...adding a "true" 1/8" to 1/16" thick headplate veneer may interfere with tuner heights/headstock thickness. I see what you mean by the 0.23" to 0.39" veneer.

If you are feeling crafty and up for it, you could make an interesting design with that veneer. A tip for gluing small pieces together can be seen here :

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ceoQeBUp5c...h/IMG_0290.jpg

http://finelystrung.files.wordpress..../dsc_00191.jpg

Getting a perfect fit of the pieces on a board covered in waxpaper, soaking with CA glue to create one piece. ... That's how I would approach this step. Maybe some folks on here having a better suggestion? If you do go ahead with this option...be careful sanding it! You can go through that stuff in a second if you're not careful...that kind of stuff just ruins your whole day...

M
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  #80  
Old 03-18-2015, 09:55 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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Originally Posted by DonmoyerM View Post
I feel like the wood veneers your looking at from LMI are more suited to someone who may make their own purfling lines, etc. But taking a quick look at some of your pictures...adding a "true" 1/8" to 1/16" thick headplate veneer may interfere with tuner heights/headstock thickness. I see what you mean by the 0.23" to 0.39" veneer.

If you are feeling crafty and up for it, you could make an interesting design with that veneer. A tip for gluing small pieces together can be seen here :

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ceoQeBUp5c...h/IMG_0290.jpg

http://finelystrung.files.wordpress..../dsc_00191.jpg

Getting a perfect fit of the pieces on a board covered in waxpaper, soaking with CA glue to create one piece. ... That's how I would approach this step. Maybe some folks on here having a better suggestion?

M
i see bloodwood headstock veneer here. this would suffice directly right?
http://www.rothkoandfrost.com/r-f-he...90-x-90-x-3mm/

i see this rosewood one pretty cheap also
https://www.martinguitar.com/guitar-...le-detail.html

Last edited by Twilo123; 03-18-2015 at 10:10 PM.
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  #81  
Old 03-18-2015, 09:59 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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oh and yes i was feeling antsy last night and already ordered my next kit lol. i don't feel confident enough to take on a full guitar kit yet so i decided on a mountain dulcimer kit for now. one difference this time is i will add a passive pickup.
i'm at the point on the 1st kit that i am doing things and then waiting so i feel like i am wasting time and should start another kit. for instance i will be at the finishing stage soon on the bouzouki which is a lot of hurry up and wait. during wait i can move onto dulcimer project.
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  #82  
Old 03-18-2015, 10:09 PM
DonmoyerM DonmoyerM is offline
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Originally Posted by Twilo123 View Post
i see bloodwood headstock veneer here. this would suffice directly right?
http://www.rothkoandfrost.com/r-f-he...90-x-90-x-3mm/
That is a 3mm thick headplate veneer... that may be a little thick for your current headstock.. that's approaching the 1/8" thickness...

Don't hit me in the head for this but....what if you just keep the headplate as it is? It's a time-tested look thats been used forever and can look very sharp?


M
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  #83  
Old 03-18-2015, 10:11 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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Originally Posted by DonmoyerM View Post
That is a 3mm thick headplate veneer... that may be a little thick for your current headstock.. that's approaching the 1/8" thickness...

Don't hit me in the head for this but....what if you just keep the headplate as it is? It's a time-tested look thats been used forever and can look very sharp?


M
ok but there will be no veneer there. just the maple headstock. i saw this one cheap also and rosewood
https://www.martinguitar.com/guitar-...le-detail.html
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  #84  
Old 03-19-2015, 05:29 AM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonmoyerM View Post
I feel like the wood veneers your looking at from LMI are more suited to someone who may make their own purfling lines, etc. But taking a quick look at some of your pictures...adding a "true" 1/8" to 1/16" thick headplate veneer may interfere with tuner heights/headstock thickness. I see what you mean by the 0.23" to 0.39" veneer.

If you are feeling crafty and up for it, you could make an interesting design with that veneer. A tip for gluing small pieces together can be seen here :

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ceoQeBUp5c...h/IMG_0290.jpg

http://finelystrung.files.wordpress..../dsc_00191.jpg

Getting a perfect fit of the pieces on a board covered in waxpaper, soaking with CA glue to create one piece. ... That's how I would approach this step. Maybe some folks on here having a better suggestion? If you do go ahead with this option...be careful sanding it! You can go through that stuff in a second if you're not careful...that kind of stuff just ruins your whole day...

M
Titebond with a gluing caul and wax paper is fine as I mentioned earlier. CA glue is "crazy" for this operation, IMHO. Oversize veneers make it easier to glue, since the veneers skate when wet with clamping pressure. The overhang can be trimmed and bevelled or rounded for a really sophisticated look from both front and side.

If you want a rosewood veneer of any thickness let me know.
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Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
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  #85  
Old 03-19-2015, 06:36 AM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ned Milburn View Post
Titebond with a gluing caul and wax paper is fine as I mentioned earlier. CA glue is "crazy" for this operation, IMHO. Oversize veneers make it easier to glue, since the veneers skate when wet with clamping pressure. The overhang can be trimmed and bevelled or rounded for a really sophisticated look from both front and side.

If you want a rosewood veneer of any thickness let me know.
Thanks Ned. I ordered the rosewood one from Mart.. Last night along with heel piece. I will keep in mind for future though for sure. Much appreciated!

So for headstock glue oversize and then trim. Tks for heads up. I was going to trace out and trim before gluing on. Lol.

For the peg holes though I that means I drill them after it is glued on right?

How about my neck angle question above? Is that angle normal?

Last edited by Twilo123; 03-19-2015 at 06:43 AM.
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  #86  
Old 03-19-2015, 07:58 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Twilo,

Your chronicles of your first instrument making experience highlight that there are three primary aspects to instrument making. The first is, for wooden instruments, good woodworking skills and a knowledge of wood as a material. The second is design skills, allowing one to make aesthetic choices about sizes, shapes and proportions and to implement them. The third is a knowledge of instruments, themselves, and the forces imposed on them and how to use materials and design choices to obtain a desired response (tone). While there are other aspects that go into instrument making, those are, perhaps, the most fundamental.

It is, as you are discovering, very difficult to do woodworking without a fair amount of knowledge about the material and the tools to work it. Many very fine instruments have been made with nothing but handtools. Machinery can be used to replace much of the handtool work, but one still needs to be skilled at using the machinery. One can learn these skills as one goes, or one can learn these skills independently. One can learn these skills from books, videos or by taking classes. There are, however, many skills to be learned, from how to setup a hand plane, to sharpening tools, to using a cabinet scraper, use of abrasives, adhesives... The more direct the approach to developing these skills, the sooner one can apply them to instrument making. Being entirely self-taught is, for many, a very long road filled with frustration and money wasted on ill-informed wood and tool purchases.

It might be very helpful for you to find an introductory woodworking course at a local high school, college, or woodworking store. You might investigate robcosman.com.


It is by far, much easier to learn to make instruments by taking a hands-on course. There are now many to choose from, including local schools dedicated to instrument making, colleges and even a few on-line courses, such as Robbie O'Brien's. Doing so, gives you one method or sequence to successfully use. It will provide you with practical, proven approaches for each step. It can reduce the trial-and-error and its associated frustration. One really cannot learn to make instruments via internet discussion forums. Sure, one can pick-up a few tips and tricks, but not much more. To assemble those into a cohesive approach is a difficult undertaking.

Building instrument kits can be a good introduction to instrument making, but it can also be a very frustrating one if one does not have the background skills necessary or if one lacks sufficient instruction on how to assemble the kit. Some kits come with detailed instructions, others less so. Some kits are better designed to ensure a novice's success, others less so.

Last edited by charles Tauber; 03-19-2015 at 08:08 AM.
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  #87  
Old 03-19-2015, 11:55 AM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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Twilo,

Your chronicles of your first instrument making experience highlight that there are three primary aspects to instrument making. The first is, for wooden instruments, good woodworking skills and a knowledge of wood as a material. The second is design skills, allowing one to make aesthetic choices about sizes, shapes and proportions and to implement them. The third is a knowledge of instruments, themselves, and the forces imposed on them and how to use materials and design choices to obtain a desired response (tone). While there are other aspects that go into instrument making, those are, perhaps, the most fundamental.

It is, as you are discovering, very difficult to do woodworking without a fair amount of knowledge about the material and the tools to work it. Many very fine instruments have been made with nothing but handtools. Machinery can be used to replace much of the handtool work, but one still needs to be skilled at using the machinery. One can learn these skills as one goes, or one can learn these skills independently. One can learn these skills from books, videos or by taking classes. There are, however, many skills to be learned, from how to setup a hand plane, to sharpening tools, to using a cabinet scraper, use of abrasives, adhesives... The more direct the approach to developing these skills, the sooner one can apply them to instrument making. Being entirely self-taught is, for many, a very long road filled with frustration and money wasted on ill-informed wood and tool purchases.

It might be very helpful for you to find an introductory woodworking course at a local high school, college, or woodworking store. You might investigate robcosman.com.


It is by far, much easier to learn to make instruments by taking a hands-on course. There are now many to choose from, including local schools dedicated to instrument making, colleges and even a few on-line courses, such as Robbie O'Brien's. Doing so, gives you one method or sequence to successfully use. It will provide you with practical, proven approaches for each step. It can reduce the trial-and-error and its associated frustration. One really cannot learn to make instruments via internet discussion forums. Sure, one can pick-up a few tips and tricks, but not much more. To assemble those into a cohesive approach is a difficult undertaking.

Building instrument kits can be a good introduction to instrument making, but it can also be a very frustrating one if one does not have the background skills necessary or if one lacks sufficient instruction on how to assemble the kit. Some kits come with detailed instructions, others less so. Some kits are better designed to ensure a novice's success, others less so.
Well put Charles. Thanks!

Personally i am having a blast. If anything is getting in my way it is a bit of OCD lol. That being said i totally understand your guidance here. I don't expect to have great woodworking experience right off the bat. This is more of a journal for me than anything else. I am fortunate that you and Ned are bothering to reply to some of my questions. Between that, research on internet, and Youtu.. I am probably getting much more information that I could say 15-20 years ago when there was no internet. It's the same for guitar playing. I used to have to listen to cassette tapes over and over for just sections sometimes for hours at a time (SRV for instance) just to try to figure out what they were doing. Everything was by sound and i did not have formal music education. It was painful but very rewarding when i finally did figure it out (or at least i thought i did lol). that was the fun and reward of it. nowadays with internet and video online it takes me minutes what might take me hours before.

Physically yes there is definitely no substitute for hands on experience. i can watch all the videos in the world and when i get to actually doing it i will find it is nothing like the video when starting out. in other cases i will know exactly from video what to expect and know that my frustrations are the norm for this particular step in the project.

Also thankfully experienced woodworkers like yourself and others realize this and put together something i can get to put together as a beginner and build up that hands on experience. otherwise it would be such a daunting project someone like me would probably never bother trying. i was looking at LMI kits the other night and they have the non servicable one which is basically raw parts. i took a look at that and said no way could i make a guitar out of that this point in my experience. i would have a hell of a lot more trouble than i have now. that being said the kit builds introduce me enough to grab me and push me into testing, trying, gaining hands on experience.
i will look into some woodworking courses locally although i must admit my interest is more for art for lack of a better word. i don't have a desire to build housing for instance. more like string instruments, carvings, etc.
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  #88  
Old 03-19-2015, 12:38 PM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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Originally Posted by Twilo123 View Post
Well put Charles. Thanks!

Personally i am having a blast. If anything is getting in my way it is a bit of OCD lol. That being said i totally understand your guidance here. I don't expect to have great woodworking experience right off the bat. This is more of a journal for me than anything else. I am fortunate that you and Ned are bothering to reply to some of my questions. Between that, research on internet, and Youtu.. I am probably getting much more information that I could say 15-20 years ago when there was no internet. It's the same for guitar playing. I used to have to listen to cassette tapes over and over for just sections sometimes for hours at a time (SRV for instance) just to try to figure out what they were doing. Everything was by sound and i did not have formal music education. It was painful but very rewarding when i finally did figure it out (or at least i thought i did lol). that was the fun and reward of it. nowadays with internet and video online it takes me minutes what might take me hours before.

Physically yes there is definitely no substitute for hands on experience. i can watch all the videos in the world and when i get to actually doing it i will find it is nothing like the video when starting out. in other cases i will know exactly from video what to expect and know that my frustrations are the norm for this particular step in the project.

Also thankfully experienced woodworkers like yourself and others realize this and put together something i can get to put together as a beginner and build up that hands on experience. otherwise it would be such a daunting project someone like me would probably never bother trying. i was looking at LMI kits the other night and they have the non servicable one which is basically raw parts. i took a look at that and said no way could i make a guitar out of that this point in my experience. i would have a hell of a lot more trouble than i have now. that being said the kit builds introduce me enough to grab me and push me into testing, trying, gaining hands on experience.
i will look into some woodworking courses locally although i must admit my interest is more for art for lack of a better word. i don't have a desire to build housing for instance. more like string instruments, carvings, etc.
Even though it is about building classical guitars, I'd recommend "Making Master Guitars".

http://www.amazon.com/Making-Master-.../dp/0709048092

It shows how to build a guitar with mostly just hand-tools. If you can build a guitar by hand, then any power tool that speeds, simplifies, or makes the processes more accurate and repeatably accurate is just icing on the cake. And if you can do it all by hand, then the world is your oyster and you have proof that you can build pretty much anything if you understand the design.
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Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
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  #89  
Old 03-19-2015, 12:59 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by Twilo123 View Post
i will look into some woodworking courses locally although i must admit my interest is more for art for lack of a better word. i don't have a desire to build housing for instance. more like string instruments, carvings, etc.
Distinguish between construction and fine woodworking/cabinet making. They involve different knowledge and skills.
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  #90  
Old 03-19-2015, 08:48 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ned Milburn View Post
Even though it is about building classical guitars, I'd recommend "Making Master Guitars".

http://www.amazon.com/Making-Master-.../dp/0709048092

It shows how to build a guitar with mostly just hand-tools. If you can build a guitar by hand, then any power tool that speeds, simplifies, or makes the processes more accurate and repeatably accurate is just icing on the cake. And if you can do it all by hand, then the world is your oyster and you have proof that you can build pretty much anything if you understand the design.
cool, thanks. i was going to grab the Cumpiano, Kinkead, & Siminoff books also on the subject. i will look into this one as will Ned.
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