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  #151  
Old 12-13-2015, 02:02 PM
littlesmith littlesmith is offline
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Originally Posted by Ovation1 View Post
There is something interesting about the tone of your guitars, I think you may have a good product here.
You say you need €10k mold (or outside contractor) to build the perfect carbon backs. Who is going to build the perfect tops?
Thank you! I would build the guitar with the bodys if i got them from a company, but i could build the body`s myself as well. I have 10 years experience with electric gutiar, bass, electric upright bass, and violin building. I did furniture school and worked at the repair department of the largest music store in the netherlands.
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  #152  
Old 12-13-2015, 02:47 PM
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"It isn't lean because you have two rolls (2x cost) when you could achieve the same results with one roll." 1x 1 m2 yellow carbon + 1x 1m2 green carbon costs the same as 1x 2m2 green carbon, it doesnt matter howmany colors you offer.
It matters in terms of things to order, options on offer, etc. Lean = remove everything you do not need to make product x. You don't need 2 colors.

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I dont have money, i do what i can, not what i want. I have planned for every outcome, 15 units at home, and alsoe medium sized and also 100 guitars in a rented space. It is irresponsible to not plan for every outcome. I have calculated everything to the cent.
How can you calculate everything to the cent when you have no idea whether any guitar will sell? If you build 10 and they sit around for a year, you have to calculate other things like storage costs, opportunity cost for your capital (spent on 10 unsold guitars instead of earning interest or whatever), etc. You can't. When you have a project this big, you just can't. Simplify.

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I listen to everything what everybody says here, that does not mean i must follow it. I know what i am talking about and i have studied all areas extensively.
Respectfully, if you did know what you're talking about, then you wouldn't be begging strangers for money unsuccessfully. Studying things on the internet isn't the same thing as the decades of real-world experience this thread has offered you.

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The only solution here is money......money. If i had money i would have this up and running in a month, and it would produce guitars that compete internationally.
Prove it.

You have three things to prove to the world before you can reasonably expect to get investors excited.

1) that you are able to make guitars on par with or better than existing guitars in the marketplace. The bar is very high. Your existing guitars are nowhere near that level. And it's not about money--French polishing the tops or making exact cuts in your rosettes doesn't cost money.

2) that there's a market for your CF guitars. You just need to make one and sell it. Not raise money to make 10 or 100. One. Making it isn't enough. You have to find someone willing to give you money for it.

3) that you have good judgment and can be trusted to manage the investment judiciously.

You haven't done those things yet. And unlike people like Ned Steinberger, Gary Kramer, Leo Fender, Ken Parker, David Schecter and many others who've successfully started music businesses after their first one made it big, you unfortunately don't have a proven track record of delivering high-quality products, so the bar is extra high for investors to get excited, because the risk (that their money will be lost) is much higher when investing in vaporware from an unknown dude when they can just go to a store and buy an Ovation or Martin or whatever.

I get it--it's hard to start something from absolute scratch. I've started businesses; some became very successful, some failed. In every one I believed our product was worth investing in and paying money for. But the market spoke and sometimes said that wasn't true.

Quote:
Many of my ideas come on the market years later because somebody else thought of it and wanted to put in the work.
History is littered with failed inventors. Having an idea is only the beginning. Execution is what matters.

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As i said, i am very poor in social skills because i have a disorder, but please believe me that i know what im talking about with guitar stuff.
Quote:
I will not quit, i will not give up, i sacrificed everythign for this for 10 years, i made mistakes and i learned from them.
This thread is evidence to the contrary.

Please don't take this personally. I'm sure you're a super guy and you have a lot of drive. But as someone who's received investment advice (and occasionally investment money) from some of the best investors in the world (people who backed or founded Google, Facebook, Netscape, PayPal, etc), drive and an idea aren't enough. You have to show proof you can focus and deliver on one thing exceptionally well.
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  #153  
Old 12-13-2015, 06:43 PM
littlesmith littlesmith is offline
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Originally Posted by rogthefrog View Post
It matters in terms of things to order, options on offer, etc. Lean = remove everything you do not need to make product x. You don't need 2 colors.



How can you calculate everything to the cent when you have no idea whether any guitar will sell? If you build 10 and they sit around for a year, you have to calculate other things like storage costs, opportunity cost for your capital (spent on 10 unsold guitars instead of earning interest or whatever), etc. You can't. When you have a project this big, you just can't. Simplify.



Respectfully, if you did know what you're talking about, then you wouldn't be begging strangers for money unsuccessfully. Studying things on the internet isn't the same thing as the decades of real-world experience this thread has offered you.



Prove it.

You have three things to prove to the world before you can reasonably expect to get investors excited.

1) that you are able to make guitars on par with or better than existing guitars in the marketplace. The bar is very high. Your existing guitars are nowhere near that level. And it's not about money--French polishing the tops or making exact cuts in your rosettes doesn't cost money.

2) that there's a market for your CF guitars. You just need to make one and sell it. Not raise money to make 10 or 100. One. Making it isn't enough. You have to find someone willing to give you money for it.

3) that you have good judgment and can be trusted to manage the investment judiciously.

You haven't done those things yet. And unlike people like Ned Steinberger, Gary Kramer, Leo Fender, Ken Parker, David Schecter and many others who've successfully started music businesses after their first one made it big, you unfortunately don't have a proven track record of delivering high-quality products, so the bar is extra high for investors to get excited, because the risk (that their money will be lost) is much higher when investing in vaporware from an unknown dude when they can just go to a store and buy an Ovation or Martin or whatever.

I get it--it's hard to start something from absolute scratch. I've started businesses; some became very successful, some failed. In every one I believed our product was worth investing in and paying money for. But the market spoke and sometimes said that wasn't true.



History is littered with failed inventors. Having an idea is only the beginning. Execution is what matters.


This thread is evidence to the contrary.

Please don't take this personally. I'm sure you're a super guy and you have a lot of drive. But as someone who's received investment advice (and occasionally investment money) from some of the best investors in the world (people who backed or founded Google, Facebook, Netscape, PayPal, etc), drive and an idea aren't enough. You have to show proof you can focus and deliver on one thing exceptionally well.

The calculations i mentioned are about the crowdfunding campaign, I limited it at 108 units, and i have calculated everything per guitar, so 1 calculation for 15 units, a new calculation for 16 units, 17 units, and so on. I know exactly how much i couls spend on tooling, regardless of howmany guitars would be sold in this crowdfunding.

I am not beggin people for money, i am offering a guitar that will be better then a 3000 or 4000 euro A brand for 1400 euro, i fail to see how that makes me the bad guy.

It is very unreasonable of you to call my model vapor wear. Vapor wear by definition has no working prototypes like i have (3x). Vapor ware is like a scam bitcoin miner that will never come, a fotoshop image "give us money and we will start inventing this". I have a validated concept so it has absuolutely nothing to do with vaporwear.

My prototypes sound fantastic (not 1 single bad review), only the finish quality needs to go up (which it will very easaly with an investment).

You say, just build one, but you cant do that with additive manufacturing. You need to setup the system before you can make one. Make the plug, make the molds. You never make such an investment for just 1 unit. I would not be watching youtube movies about guitar building if i had an actual mold (my mold is dead), but i would be building 1 flawless guitar. ---> this costs money.

As i said many times i don`t have money, at all. I chose not to go on vacation for 10 years and stuff like that, that is how i got 3 prototypes. 1 year i would build a nice worksurface, and then i was out of the game for another full year...

I really dont know why i keep coming to this site. I`m just a guy with an intention to build amazing guitars, the best that i can build myself. I keep getting slammed on this site for no reason. I am being treated as if i was an oompa loompa but i am a genuine willy wonka and my original candy flavor tastes amazing, the gumball just looks a little rought right now, thats all. This guitar model is 10 years ahead of anything on the market right now. When i was the only one saying this, it was highly subjective. But then it was tested by many guitar players, people i never met. Including a grammy winning guitar player... people that know what they are talking about. You play my prototypes and you say, wow this is amazing. I would rather have the sound and need an upgrade in the finish quality then a high gloss thing that sounds like crap.

This model is good and i will go all in on it. I will sell every posesion i own and hold dear in this world if that is what it takes to be able to start building.

I dont come here to battle, i come here to post facts about what i`m doing and how.

I told you how i made a crypto currency that sends money in 7 seconds and did 65k, i can not code but i made it happen. I tought myself how to build a virtual reality game in 2 months without any coding experience ever. It works and its awesome. I developed the worlds first adaptive virtual reality controller on fumes that moves into your hand when you grab something ingame. I was talking to VC about a 2 million dollar virtual reality project but i went back to guitars because it was my true passion. If i say that i will learn or do something, i will do it and i will teach myself new skills. I have been tested and i was called very gifted (a gift and a curse, i see chrystal clear what i can do and how, but no resources). You may see 1000 problems, the entrepeneur sees a 1000 challenges and pushes on relentlessly. This model uses the same principles that made the cryptocurrency a succes, you look at whats available, and you offer something that doesnt exist yet.

All those names you mention had a venture capital investment, amazing quality is not done on nickels and dimes (my budget). PRS had 500k in 1985. Aristides in the Netherlands had 2 million euros investment, and so on. People want me to make a flawless guitar with **** tooling, this is not reasonable, you will never ever find a leak in your vacuumbag without a 500 dollar ultrasonic leak detector. I cant even buy that if i save 1 year.

This model wil not be amazing quality in every little detail without an investment, its really that simple. You say Google, Facebook, Netscape, PayPal, all tech companies, the most funded startup segment in the world. You say prove it. i say somebody invest a 100k and i will make a company that does 50k per month without employees.
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Last edited by littlesmith; 12-13-2015 at 06:56 PM.
  #154  
Old 12-13-2015, 07:09 PM
rogthefrog rogthefrog is offline
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The finish on your prototypes doesn't need money. It needs skill, accuracy, practice.

Your guitars are vaporware. The real finished product does not exist. Making professional guitars that people will pay for is very different from making prototypes with bizarre bridges and terrifying repairs around said bridge.

If every person you interact with here says you should do things differently, maybe they have a point.

I'm done trying to help.
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  #155  
Old 12-13-2015, 08:19 PM
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OP, im OK leaving this thread open but there seems to be a theme of argument with the posters. I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong, but we need to tone it down a little in order for this thread to be a success.
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  #156  
Old 12-13-2015, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlesmith View Post
My prototypes sound fantastic ...

...i am a genuine willy wonka and my original candy flavor tastes amazing, the gumball just looks a little rought right now, thats all. This guitar model is 10 years ahead of anything on the market right now.

I told you how i made a crypto currency that sends money in 7 seconds and did 65k, i can not code but i made it happen. I tought myself how to build a virtual reality game in 2 months without any coding experience ever. It works and its awesome. I developed the worlds first adaptive virtual reality controller on fumes that moves into your hand when you grab something ingame. I was talking to VC about a 2 million dollar virtual reality project but i went back to guitars because it was my true passion.
With a hand like this I can not see how you can not succeed.
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  #157  
Old 12-13-2015, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by littlesmith View Post

I am not beggin people for money, i am offering a guitar that will be better then a 3000 or 4000 euro A brand for 1400 euro, i fail to see how that makes me the bad guy.

My prototypes sound fantastic (not 1 single bad review), only the finish quality needs to go up (which it will very easaly with an investment).
People buy with their eyes, not their ears. Want proof? Go ahead and try to sell your prototypes, see what your guitar is really worth.
  #158  
Old 12-14-2015, 01:11 AM
rogthefrog rogthefrog is offline
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Originally Posted by matthewpartrick View Post
OP, im OK leaving this thread open but there seems to be a theme of argument with the posters. I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong, but we need to tone it down a little in order for this thread to be a success.
FWIW I won't be posting here again.
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  #159  
Old 12-14-2015, 05:15 AM
littlesmith littlesmith is offline
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Originally Posted by matthewpartrick View Post
OP, im OK leaving this thread open but there seems to be a theme of argument with the posters. I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong, but we need to tone it down a little in order for this thread to be a success.
Thats because i keep having to defend myself and we keep going in circles.

"You need more experience"... i would love more experience, i cant afford materials. No materials --> no building --> no experience.

"It doesnt look like its consumer ready"...I know its not consumer ready, thats exactly why im trying so hard to get funding.

"Just make one good one". You cant without good tooling ---> Need funding.

"Why dont you listen to our advice"... you have not started a company on welfare while battling a disorder with an acoustic guitar model that uses aerospace quality materials and production processes. I`m not the 12 year old boy cute kind of autism, im the 31 year old anti social alianate my own family kind. I don`t know how to talk to people, im socialy akward, and sooner or later people get sick of me. But this all says nothing about the guitar model and its potential.

But you are right, from now on i will simply not reply to these things. I try to be nice and give everybody an answer, but this is just draining my energy.

I know exactly how to get an amzing guitar, it is quite humiliating to have to do everything with the wrong tool. The fretboard wont be super level with an old piece of wood you found, offcourse i would rather buy a stewmac aluminium sandingbeam, i cant even pay my rent right now. If you dont have a vacuum leak detector of 500 bux, you wont find the leak, the fabric is not pulled against the mold surface, 1000s of pinholes, no high gloss, no nice body. I would love some nutfiles, but im making the slots deeper with an old hacksaw.

If you do every little step right, the total will be right. My entire production process has been written out, step by step, glue this, sand that, drill here. Everything is production ready. Composite companies are on standby, ready to produce at mindboggling quality....but they want to get payd.

If you watch shark tank or dragons den, you see its very common that a prototype stage venture needs 100k or 200k to proceed. I made 3 prototypes on fumes and dust, and i think that deserves a little more credit then i often get on this forum. There were times were i was out of the game for 3 weeks because i could not afford a 4 dollar sandpaper. If you do this for 10 years, you get exausted. You sacrifice going on vacation, dating and buying clothing for 10 years, and it still was not enough to make the leap from prototype to consumer quality. That is the basis of my frustration so i get triggered when somebody sais "just do this", and the real solution is getting the right tools.

Composites is not forgiving like wood, you cant sand a little spot, fill something up, 1 loose strand in your body and its in there for ever. These carbonfiber acoustic companies owners come from the aero space industrie and they have put millions of dollar in to get the overal quality right.....millions. I should not even have gotten this far without resources.

The proof is in the pudding (this video has no effects what so ever) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msvlzbOaDgQ

I have strangers coming to my house to play the guitar, and they are amazed at the sound, an award winning dutch designer Marcel van zwieten on board, Mark Lettieri a grammy winner, a talented handpaint artist Nina Valkhoff, people friend me on facebook and say the sound is amazing, and they never heard anything like this ever, like internation producer Jake Morelli (producer Queen Latifah,Esperanza Spalding,The Roots), so i must be doing something right. Some people see the good in my model, the potential, instead of attacking everything that is not the quality it could be with an investment.

The sound is there, the finish quality will go up with an investment, and thats the last i will say about it.

Ill keep it civil and nice from now on, thank you for not closing the thread.
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Last edited by littlesmith; 12-14-2015 at 05:44 AM.
  #160  
Old 12-14-2015, 10:03 AM
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Marcus Wong Marcus Wong is offline
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I don't think you understand what the feedback has been. There hasn't necessarily been an attack on the sound of your instruments, but on your woodworking. Putting all the carbon fibre stuff aside, it does not cost much to create an aesthetically pleasing top (rosette + finish). It does however, take an artistic eye and experience/skill to execute such a vision. And that is what you have not shown the people of this forum that you are capable of. Sure a guitar which has no bindings/rosette/inlays can sound AMAZING. But how many people would be interested? People buy with their eyes first before they consider buying with their ears unless you have already established a name for yourself and people might be deceived into thinking that it is a new trend you're setting, and would buy into that idea.

So I think the take-away advice if any is: Take your woodworking/finishing skills to the next level if you want to meet the industry standard of guitars set by both factory built and handbuilt instruments. It does not take much money, just the right skill set. Show your target audience that you can meet THEIR expectations. Consumers can be selfish and don't really care what you think a guitar is supposed to look/sound like, they just want what meets their expectations, and not yours. And so far, from what you've revealed about the fundraiser, the target audience doesn't seen to be biting.

From my experience, people on this forum try their best to be encouraging. Just take a look at all the amateur build threads. Being encouraging is one thing, but we have to remember to be realistic as well.

I sincerely wish you all the best on your endeavours and wish that I had half the passion and drive that you have
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  #161  
Old 12-14-2015, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by littlesmith View Post


I know exactly how to get an amzing guitar, it is quite humiliating to have to do everything with the wrong tool. The fretboard wont be super level with an old piece of wood you found, offcourse i would rather buy a stewmac aluminium sandingbeam, i cant even pay my rent right now. If you dont have a vacuum leak detector of 500 bux, you wont find the leak, the fabric is not pulled against the mold surface, 1000s of pinholes, no high gloss, no nice body. I would love some nutfiles, but im making the slots deeper with an old hacksaw.

...

I have put millions of dollar in to get the overal quality right.....millions. I should not even have gotten this far

.
This is the bit I don't understand.
An absolute bare minimum trait of a good guitar is the ability to hold a good set up. Things like nut slots are important. If you get them wrong you will have a bad guitar, no matter anything else it features. If you've invested millions over 10 years and not included the tools to get a level fretboard and clean nut slots, then I feel there is probably a better way to go about it.
  #162  
Old 12-14-2015, 08:11 PM
littlesmith littlesmith is offline
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Originally Posted by Badcrumble View Post
This is the bit I don't understand.
An absolute bare minimum trait of a good guitar is the ability to hold a good set up. Things like nut slots are important. If you get them wrong you will have a bad guitar, no matter anything else it features. If you've invested millions over 10 years and not included the tools to get a level fretboard and clean nut slots, then I feel there is probably a better way to go about it.
that was supposed to say they have invested millions, those carbon fiber acoustic guitar companies. I never had millions lol... I cant even find that sentance??? It says "These carbonfiber acoustic companies owners come from the aero space industrie and they have put millions of dollar in to get the overal quality right.....millions. I should not even have gotten this far without resources."
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  #163  
Old 12-14-2015, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by littlesmith View Post
These carbonfiber acoustic companies owners come from the aero space industrie and they have put millions of dollar in to get the overal quality right.....millions. I should not even have gotten this far without resources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badcrumble View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlesmith View Post
I have put millions of dollar in to get the overal quality right.....millions. I should not even have gotten this far.
This is the bit I don't understand.
An absolute bare minimum trait of a good guitar is the ability to hold a good set up. Things like nut slots are important. If you get them wrong you will have a bad guitar, no matter anything else it features. If you've invested millions over 10 years and not included the tools to get a level fretboard and clean nut slots, then I feel there is probably a better way to go about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlesmith View Post
that was supposed to say they have invested millions, those carbon fiber acoustic guitar companies. I never had millions lol...

I cant even find that sentance??? It says "These carbonfiber acoustic companies owners come from the aero space industrie and they have put millions of dollar in to get the overal quality right.....millions. I should not even have gotten this far without resources."
littlesmith, you're not finding that sentence in your original post because it's not there. Badcrumble edited your words, and then attacked you based on his fabrication.

Badcrumble, I searched through this entire topic, and the phrase "I have put millions," which you supposedly quoted, only appears once: in your post, in a section which has a link back to where the quote supposedly comes but doesn't actually appear. For ease of reading, I put it first in my list of quotes, followed by your alteration of it and then your attack upon littlesmith based upon your own words, and not something actually said by littlesmith.

As far as you stating that you don't understand the words you fabricated... I'm as clueless as you as to what you were trying to do there.

Shady, mate.
  #164  
Old 12-14-2015, 11:23 PM
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This thread is really more about bickering between posters. You guys need to rectify this post haste or it will be closed. Fourteen months of bickering gets tiring to observe.
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  #165  
Old 12-15-2015, 12:18 AM
Badcrumble Badcrumble is offline
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My apologies. I was editing on a phone and trying to delete portions of the post...it's likely I deleted too much and replaced things incorrectly. I'm sorry.


I'd not meant an attack at all, just that tools for nut slots and level fretboards were necessary and not too costly and over ten years I expect you could have taken things further with these tools than without them.
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