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  #61  
Old 07-27-2017, 05:23 AM
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Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
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Originally Posted by rockabilly69 View Post
The best post I ever saw about the KM184 is this one that I found on GS a while back by user Omnicron_9 (I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him)....
As soon as Neumann discontinues the KM-184 and introduces the KM-284, everyone will swear:
1. The KM-184 was one of the best mics Neumann ever built.
2. The KM-284 is one of the worst mics EVER.

KM-284ically yours,
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  #62  
Old 07-28-2017, 06:57 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Aloha,

Neumann makes very, very good mikes. They used to make great mic's, IMO.

When I compared a new U87ai with a 1972 U87, they were two completely different mic's (I've made this comparison many times). People familiar with the warmth & versatility of vintage U87's are the ones who probably are harsher on the U87ai that they should be. But I am one among them.

And comparing the KM184 to a 1980 KM-84? Try it out for yourselves, guys. SIZZLE!

alohachris
Yes to your U 87 adventure and the headroom of the newer model was less than that of the original.

One man's sizzle is another man's bee sting in the ear.

Maybe a little context here. The KM184 was designed when analog tape machines roamed the earth. It was a way of imprinting more HF to tape, because analog tape has HF tape loss.

Even so, when I tried a KM184, the sizzle made everything sound pretty nasty. Having said that, if you have a particularly soft sounding source that you're trying to emphasize, the HF of, the KM184 will do that. Maybe you haven't changed your strings in a year.....OK.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #63  
Old 07-28-2017, 10:05 AM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ty Ford View Post
Yes to your U 87 adventure and the headroom of the newer model was less than that of the original.

One man's sizzle is another man's bee sting in the ear.

Maybe a little context here. The KM184 was designed when analog tape machines roamed the earth. It was a way of imprinting more HF to tape, because analog tape has HF tape loss.

Even so, when I tried a KM184, the sizzle made everything sound pretty nasty. Having said that, if you have a particularly soft sounding source that you're trying to emphasize, the HF of, the KM184 will do that. Maybe you haven't changed your strings in a year.....OK.

Regards,
Ty Ford
Try a KM184 with a Drawmer 1960 or a Sebatron VMP at the mid gain stage, or better yet a Manley Voxbox with the Pultec! All these preamps work great with the KM184. Right source, right pre, and the KM184 becomes HIGHLY useable!
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  #64  
Old 07-28-2017, 04:06 PM
Andy Howell Andy Howell is offline
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Try Bayerdynamix 930s.
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  #65  
Old 07-29-2017, 06:02 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Originally Posted by rockabilly69 View Post
Try a KM184 with a Drawmer 1960 or a Sebatron VMP at the mid gain stage, or better yet a Manley Voxbox with the Pultec! All these preamps work great with the KM184. Right source, right pre, and the KM184 becomes HIGHLY useable!
"Highly Usable" is subjective. Don't get me wrong, I'm a believer in Neumann.
I'd like to hear some raw tracks (no EQ) that you like with the KM184.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #66  
Old 07-29-2017, 07:09 AM
KevWind KevWind is offline
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Originally Posted by Ty Ford View Post
"Highly Usable" is subjective. Don't get me wrong, I'm a believer in Neumann.
I'd like to hear some raw tracks (no EQ) that you like with the KM184.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Yes the 184 and the U87ai both seem garner a vast variance of detractors to fans. Then couple that to the mystique that tends to follow the older 87's and 84"s and the controversy is well fueled . I think specific source may have as much or more to with it as anything else in the chain.

Also the problem that the vintage pieces individually also seem to also vary widely in performance as well, that and they are so hard to come by, that comparing them is for practical reasons is pretty much a "non starter" for people looking to actually purchase.
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  #67  
Old 07-29-2017, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ty Ford View Post
"Highly Usable" is subjective. Don't get me wrong, I'm a believer in Neumann. I'd like to hear some raw tracks (no EQ) that you like with the KM184.

Regards,

Ty Ford
My emphasis. Treading lightly here because I understand that there are still some engineers who hold to the "straight-wire"* engineering philosophy:

I have to say that the raw tracks as the defining criterion isn't one used by many engineers I know. Most engineers I know listen to a mic and gauge its value based upon its potential. Yes, they prefer minimal processing, but virtually any mic that is at its best in an application without any processing is virtually a one-trick dog for that one application if you go without any processing. There are reasons why top-of-the-line recording consoles feature comprehensive processing on each channel: there are no perfect mics. They all have warts. There are no perfect recording situations: they all have challenges that need to be corrected.

There are also reasons why most recording engineers use EQ, including the fact that most are required to face a variety of recording challenges with a limited choice of mics and a limited amount of time to set up. In many ways, the job of recording engineer is like that of a doctor: people bring you their problems to be solved. You take a look, diagnose, and prescribe a solution. After the initial recording session you may (or more probably will) need to alter the prescription to fine-tune the outcome. Abuses and bad applications happen but that is the way of things in free society.

The mic is a tool, an instrument, something like a guitar. With the guitar, the raw instrument as discovered in a guitar store may not perfectly fit the application so there may be a setup, a change of strings, a change of nut and saddle material, things required to make the player more comfortable and the outcome better. The mic is an instrument as well. There may be application changes or EQ needed to make it fit the application better. The larger the ensemble to be recorded, the more this is true. It is a fact of life.

And finally, the question of pre-emphasis is a battle that will probably never be won. At the dawn of the digital age the cry went out that pre-emphasis was no longer needed or desirable so GET IT OFF THE MICS. Same with transformers and the awful, ringing, impure Neve EQs.** Mic manufacturers complied and issued new transformerless versions of their mics with pre-emphasis removed such as the AKG C460B comb. Studios ditched their transformered mics and Neve consoles. Guess what? A few years later everyone was crowing for the old mics, EQs, and transformers. Why? Because there is a desirable sound they offer that the others don't. It's horses for courses and it caused an industry-wide swing back to the older technology and design philosophy. Wait, don't tell me: there are fashion trends in recording. It isn't just science, it is an art. Wherever there is art there is fashion.

Bob

* The straight-wire philosophy of recording arose in the 1980s and was a recording philosophy exemplified by the idea that the most minimal path between microphone and reproduction speaker was always the best. One of the key specifications of this group was no "heavy iron," ie. transformers, in the reproduction chain. By the way, this philosophy was highly influential in the design of the transformerless MK184 which was released in 1993 to replace the KM84. By the way, the KM184 is a bit of an anomaly: the design features both a transformerless circuit and a pre-emphasis curve. Wowser. That sort of makes it a period piece. By its release in 1993, analog recording had already been eclipsed by digital as the numerically-favored technology for music. We bought our last analog multitrack recorder in 1990 and still have it. It was literally the last design amongst the analog multitrack recorders that were built, also a period piece.

** I kid you not. That is exactly what leading edge engineers and manufacturers said of Neve EQs. Came back to bite 'em, too.
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  #68  
Old 07-29-2017, 03:45 PM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Bob, Just so we're clear, your assumptions are...um, your assumptions. They really have little to nothing to do with my approach to recording and/or why I might want to hear the KM184 in its natural state.

None of your other editorial flights of fancy in that post apply to me either.

Best Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #69  
Old 07-29-2017, 06:32 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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I like the KM184. It's a fine mic. I had two pairs in the past and kept them for many years. I don't use them now because I have other mics that I prefer.
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  #70  
Old 07-29-2017, 07:09 PM
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  #71  
Old 07-29-2017, 07:33 PM
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You may find the following video quite interesting.

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  #72  
Old 07-29-2017, 08:26 PM
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You may find the following video quite interesting.

That's hilarious!!! If you listen really carefully in the clip at around the forty minute mark you might be able to hear me going out the back door to the bathroom and coming back. I was there at Jacob Javitts Center in New York, at that particular session of the AES (2009) and enjoyed the workshop.

Bob
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  #73  
Old 07-29-2017, 08:42 PM
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ID badge from the conference.

Bob
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  #74  
Old 07-30-2017, 06:57 AM
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You may find the following video quite interesting.

I was not there like Bob but have viewed the video a number of times.

Here are some of my thoughts :

Ah yes the "Winer Crusade" the fodder of endless debate on GS among experts and amateurs alike .

Seemed to me to be an amalgam of tedious true believer doctrine and tactics , mixed in with some very good points, particularly James Johnston's starting with the red list and his reference to a couple very important points . One very important point that flew by in it's brevity was as he put it "the loudness analysis" in which I believe he referencing the well established point that, if the levels are mismatched almost universally whichever is louder will be perceived to be better.


Then the "steering" comment ...... If you believe there is a difference, then you will tend to hear it. If you believe there isn't a difference then you tend not to hear a difference . In other words expectation bias swings both ways equally.
I'll repeat " Expectation bias swings both ways"

Then arguably his most important point "If you listen at different times (depending on your focus ) you will hear different things from the same stimuli"
I'll repeat "You will hear different things from the same stimuli "
And it should be noted that if this true / Then this can be a factor (to a much lesser degree perhaps, but still present) even in a blind test.

What does the above mean ? IMO it means ...... while being informative , it really doesn't do much to objectively resolve the question of "worth the price ?"
While there is no doubt that in general electronics are getting better and better at lower price points all the time. AND the old adage of the "sliding scale of value per dollar spent" applies...... One should also be aware that the old adage of " You get what you pay for" does not magically disappear simply because we are not able or unwilling to pay, for the more expensive types of gear.
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Last edited by KevWind; 07-30-2017 at 07:28 AM.
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  #75  
Old 07-30-2017, 07:09 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
I like the KM184. It's a fine mic. I had two pairs in the past and kept them for many years. I don't use them now because I have other mics that I prefer.
Thanks for helping me make my point!

Which mics do you now prefer?

Regards,

Ty Ford
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