The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Build and Repair

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #61  
Old 03-15-2015, 08:21 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,071
Default

Thanks Bryan!

question: for actually gluing the binding can i just use Titebond like i have been with the rest of the instrument? if not i was thinking of doing what Mr. O'Brien is showing in the video below. Would that suffice if i can't just use Titebond?

Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 03-15-2015, 09:29 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,071
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilo123 View Post

for the binding of the fretboard i just noticed that recently on some of my guitars as others i have seen shrink from lack of humidity a little this year in my home. i will look into binding fretboards also. is that something i can do at a later time like repair work or do i need to do it now while i am doing the main build? i like the idea of it as i never feel the frets on my hands as i slide up and down the fretboard. i've had one of my acoustics for 10+ years and with the binding i never have to feel the frets. awesome idea!
i looked over my stringed instruments. they pretty much all have the binding on the fretboard. some have thicker binding than others. even my ukes have it. the only ones that don't are a couple of cheap electrics i have. i really need to get the fret binding down for next time! what i notice on them is some are thicker than others. so some look like they are there more for just sliding your hand purpose and others are there for that and for giving you some leeway from humidity dry out and frets sticking out. also some are black to blend in and some are white for contrast it looks like. most seem to be below the frets so technically the fret could stick out at some point. others seem to be right over the fret (i can feel the bump of each fret through the binding). they all look like plastic binding on the fretboard for mine.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 03-15-2015, 10:02 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,071
Default

Question: what color headstock veneer should i get? i have mahogany top with cherry back/sides and rosewood fingerboard.

i am looking at these possibly in pic 1 (ebony, maple, maple flame). i am thinking maple flame might be best for this headstock.

or i guess i could just get some smaller veneer wood and piece together something (pic 2). in that case they have bloodwood, sycamore, and indian rosewood.

also i've never used veneer before. looks like people have issues with it bending under certain conditions. anything i should look out for or use to mitigate this affect? i see some people using irons and others using heavy weight to make sure it stays flat (like sandbag for instance).

do i just use the titebond or do i need CA to glue veneer on headstock?

pic 1


pic 2

Last edited by Twilo123; 03-16-2015 at 10:27 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 03-15-2015, 10:29 PM
DonmoyerM DonmoyerM is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 16
Default

I've been a reader of this forum for many years, and have stumbled upon this thread a few times. I have finally made the plunge ..so take it easy on me everyone lol.

First off, Congrats on an awesome build so far. Not only is it tough to show your work-in-progress to everyone, but to even show some mistakes...that is impressive and inspirational!

As for the headstock veneers... You do have a few different woods already in this build. So i can only offer a few tidbits of advice.

1) keep it simple but with flow - so maybe a rosewood veneer to compliment the fingerboard, or if you have cherry or mahogany scraps laying around that you can bookmatch into a head veneer. maple or flamed maple may be "too much" in my opinion for this option

2)traditional - might be a rosewood or ebony headplate veneer

3) make a statement - bloodwood bloodwood bloodwood. you can make that headstock standout in a crowd and it may compliment well with the cherry and mahogany once a finish is applied. (test before!)

as for storage of these veneers... Store bought headstock veneer typically is 1/16" - 1/8" thick so you can get away with keeping it by itself on your shelf or even sticker it with other woods if you are concerned. If it is a veneer that is 1/32" or so ...keeping it under a flat weight is never a bad idea. or even in a heavy hardcover book....just remember the page!

Titebond would be the way to go .

Hope i could help,

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 03-16-2015, 07:09 AM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 3,125
Default

A few notes:

1) Fret end bevelling & binding...

- I usually bevel my fret ends (guessing at about 40 degrees inward from vertical) and I bevel just the very edge of the fingerboard - maybe about 1/5th of a mm. This does 2 things.... As the fingerboard shrinks, the fret ends may extend past the bevel, but they are less prone to poke out past the fingerboard edge. Also, it smooths the 90 degree sharp edge of the fingerboard. More long lasting comfort.

- Binding - If after time a bound fingerboard begins to bulge outward at the location of each fret, this means that the fret tangs were not trimmed enough and are pretty much flush with the inner edge of the binding at installation. The fret ends should be trimmed about 1/2 a mm or a touch more from the inner edge of the binding to allow for fingerboard shrinkage and to ensure the binding doesn't get ripped out when the frets are removed in the future for re-fretting.

- Binding - It is common to use 2 strips of binding per face (top/back) and join them with a butt joint at the tail of the guitar. Matching EXACTLY at the center join of top and back is an example of top quality craftsmanship and attention to detail. In your case, if your kit came with enough binding strips, you may wish to install the binding in this fashion. Or, you can join it on the treble side (less visible when playing) in a fashion so that the pattern is continuous to make the join as little visible as possible. Don't forget, this is a kit, and you are on a big learning curve, so don't aim for perfection - just aim for "as good as possible within the confines of the kit and your present skills & knowledge."

2) Headstock laminations - The act of laminating wood often adds strength. However, if one was to laminate only 0.5 or 0.7mm sheets onto a headstock, I would doubt there would be a significant strength improvement. Hence, I use decorative thin laminates (one to three) underneath a laminate of at least about 1.2 (usually 1.5 or so) mm to be more confident that the lamination is actually adding strength to the headstock.

- Make certain to use a gluing caul (a flat piece of wood) to clamp the headstock laminates onto the HS when gluing to ensure they glue flat. If your gluing caul is bare wood (or MDF - which is very handy), then be sure to cover it with wax paper to avoid having a headstock with MDF glued onto it. (They make for ugly headstocks!) I have bamboo hardwood flooring that I often use for gluing cauls since glue doesn't make a permanent bond with the pre-finished surface. I have various pieces of this hardwood flooring material in various sizes and shapes that I use and re-use for this selfsame purpose.
__________________
----

Ned Milburn
NSDCC Master Artisan
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 03-16-2015, 10:26 AM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,071
Default

You Rock Ned! Thanks!!!
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 03-16-2015, 09:47 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,071
Default

for tonight i wound up attempting to round out the end of the fretboard by the soundhole. i also went back to trying some fret filing. finally i glued the binding on the top half.

1st was round out the end (pic 1) (end result pic 5 & 6). i had no clue how to do this and have mostly hand tools so i figured it was safer trying with the hand tools i had. man i hate hard woods and hand tools. really not fun experience. mostly because i am not happy with the outcome. i think for hard wood like that the best to use against it are power tools. so in this case i took some left over wax paper and traced out the soundhole portion where the fretboard would be. i then transferred that onto the fretboard and penciled the outline. next, i placed the fretboard in a vice horizontal and proceeded to cut with a coping saw. i got a general cut and from there i sanded, cut a little more with coping saw, sanded, etc. and just kept matching it up placing it on the neck. i marked the neck with 1/4" space at top for the nut and kept test setting the fretboard. i basically came out with (pic 2) something i was not happy with. hand sanding on that wood sucks and chisel wasn't much fun either. not supple at all so it was like trying to chip wood as opposed to molding it. now pic 2 i actually was up a hair on the top end so it comes down on the left side and covers properly i believe when i finally glue the neck in but the whole upside down U is definitely not uniform. i tried wrapping sandpaper around a round handle and also have a U shaped sanding block (left side of pic 3 under headstock) but it still didn't come out well rounded at all. i have 50, 60, and 150 grit paper. i think a dremel with a sandpaper bit would have worked wonders here. i have to research how people are rounding out necks. maybe i could have used the router also.

next i tried to file down the frets a little more. i used the triangle small file in (pic 7). this time i tried both 90 degree straight up and down to bring the nubs in and then diagonally across to make sure they were all the way in. finally i did the 45 degree angle over the top and round out to 90 degrees pushing down. i had somewhat better success but again i think the fretboard is my least favorite part of this project so far. very disappointed with my results personally. i can still feel partial nubs if i run my fingers down the side of the fingerboard. not happy about that and need to research a bit more and best way to take care of it.

finally i moved on to the binding (pic 3 & 4). as suggested yesterday i decided to take my 2 strips and but them so they would run from the neck to the bottom bout and meet there. that means the 2 strips i have will only suffice for the top. i will order another 2 for the bottom. since my binding are wood strips i decided to just go with the titebond. i did a dry placement first and cut the strip with a razor blade. made sure the end was 90 degrees flat as that will be the joint. then for the 1st top side (side you see when playing yourself) i only glued the routed wood. i did not lay glue directly on the binding (which i probably should have). i went around and used the blue tape as i saw in videos. basically put on a side and then push hard 90 degrees at the joint and push flush as much as possible. in my case i rotated from top down to down up to top rotating tape strips. then i overdid it by laying more tape on any gaps so basically it is tape all around.

for the 2nd side (the bottom half of top) while dry fitting the wood snapped so now i had an extra joint. the snap fit well together though as it was a clean break so hopefully it won't stand out to much once dried. either way it is bottom side of top so not as bad as if i did it on top side of top. on the bottom side though i started the strip from the bottom bout where joint meets and ran it up through to the top of neck. then i cut the top by neck with a razor blade when i got close. this time also i put glue on both the wood and the binding strip itself. i had much more squeeze out this way but no the whole piece was definitely glued properly.

pic 1


pic 2


pic 3


pic 4


pic 5


pic 6


pic 7
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 03-16-2015, 09:53 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,071
Default

...duplicate post somehow.

Last edited by Twilo123; 03-16-2015 at 10:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 03-16-2015, 10:01 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,071
Default

...again duplicate post. weird tonight.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 03-16-2015, 10:03 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,071
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonmoyerM View Post
I've been a reader of this forum for many years, and have stumbled upon this thread a few times. I have finally made the plunge ..so take it easy on me everyone lol.

First off, Congrats on an awesome build so far. Not only is it tough to show your work-in-progress to everyone, but to even show some mistakes...that is impressive and inspirational!

As for the headstock veneers... You do have a few different woods already in this build. So i can only offer a few tidbits of advice.

1) keep it simple but with flow - so maybe a rosewood veneer to compliment the fingerboard, or if you have cherry or mahogany scraps laying around that you can bookmatch into a head veneer. maple or flamed maple may be "too much" in my opinion for this option

2)traditional - might be a rosewood or ebony headplate veneer

3) make a statement - bloodwood bloodwood bloodwood. you can make that headstock standout in a crowd and it may compliment well with the cherry and mahogany once a finish is applied. (test before!)

as for storage of these veneers... Store bought headstock veneer typically is 1/16" - 1/8" thick so you can get away with keeping it by itself on your shelf or even sticker it with other woods if you are concerned. If it is a veneer that is 1/32" or so ...keeping it under a flat weight is never a bad idea. or even in a heavy hardcover book....just remember the page!

Titebond would be the way to go .

Hope i could help,

Mike
Thanks for the words of encouragement Mike! i am just trying to get something playable for this first time. like i said earlier i have absolutely zero experience with woodworking, glues, and power tools. so this is all a new experience for me.

the bloodwood i like also Mike but it is not a full size so i have to checkerboard my headstock in that case. the 1st set listed are specifically headstock size. the 2nd set that includes bloodwood is a little less than half size. so maybe i will do 2 if i do bloodwood if possible. bloodwood and?
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 03-17-2015, 01:07 PM
repete repete is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 216
Default

Frets- I know I'm a bit late on this BUT....

Always check the slot for debris before pounding in the fret. It should go all the way into the slot with just a few good whacks. Usually CA glue is only needed when the ends dont want to stay down. Use a metal scale to push the ends to make sure they are installed tightly. Even many new guitars have "loose ends" of frets.

The file you have pictured is MUCH too coarse. I hope you found one more like Charles' pic.

Glue- wood to wood- titebond or similar.
wood to metal- CA.
wood to plastic (like plastic binding) solvent containing clear glue. This isnt as easy to find as it used to, since some dumb people wanted to sniff it instead of creating art.

When you go to glue on the fingerboard, pull out two or three frets, clamp it in place, and drill some small holes through the fingerboard and slightly into the neck. Use some small brads to pin the neck so it cant move when clamping and give you one of those "oh sh...!" moments.

-r
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 03-17-2015, 01:27 PM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 3,125
Default

For doing a final shaping of the fingerboard extension where it meets the soundhole, I ALWAYS join the fingerboard first.

Then, you have a guide for the final shaping. You also need to be careful that you sand a good curve even when a harder object (ie: fret) is complicating your filing.

Here are a couple pics of a custom classical I made with both an elevated fingerboard extension and an extended fingerboard (high C).

Shaped only by hand and eye and hand tools. Yes, it IS indeed a lot of effort - physical effort and brain effort. If it were easy, more people would be building world class instruments just by hand. But it isn't easy, and especially hand work will show the level of one's true craftsmanship and skill. It is comparatively easy to learn to be a tool operator with jigs and CNC (computer numeric controlled) manufacturing. Some people build great guitars that way. But...



__________________
----

Ned Milburn
NSDCC Master Artisan
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 03-17-2015, 07:40 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,071
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ned Milburn View Post
For doing a final shaping of the fingerboard extension where it meets the soundhole, I ALWAYS join the fingerboard first.

Then, you have a guide for the final shaping. You also need to be careful that you sand a good curve even when a harder object (ie: fret) is complicating your filing.

Here are a couple pics of a custom classical I made with both an elevated fingerboard extension and an extended fingerboard (high C).

Shaped only by hand and eye and hand tools. Yes, it IS indeed a lot of effort - physical effort and brain effort. If it were easy, more people would be building world class instruments just by hand. But it isn't easy, and especially hand work will show the level of one's true craftsmanship and skill. It is comparatively easy to learn to be a tool operator with jigs and CNC (computer numeric controlled) manufacturing. Some people build great guitars that way. But...



Ned, how do you get such a great curvature on the fretboard end? do you have something concave that you put the sandpaper on? do you have a curved chisel or something? your curves are of course much better than what i am doing and would love to know how you make such a perfect curve by hand. if you're willing to explain of course. i am very frustrated with mine and am contemplating just cutting it straight this time until i can figure out how to do a better curve. since you join the fingerboard 1st how to you cut off the fretboard to curve it? just sanding or finely with a chisel real slow? do you use the actual soundhole as a guide in that case? sand/chisel until you hit the edge of soundhole?
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 03-17-2015, 07:48 PM
Twilo123 Twilo123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,071
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by repete View Post
Frets- I know I'm a bit late on this BUT....

Always check the slot for debris before pounding in the fret. It should go all the way into the slot with just a few good whacks. Usually CA glue is only needed when the ends dont want to stay down. Use a metal scale to push the ends to make sure they are installed tightly. Even many new guitars have "loose ends" of frets.

The file you have pictured is MUCH too coarse. I hope you found one more like Charles' pic.

Glue- wood to wood- titebond or similar.
wood to metal- CA.
wood to plastic (like plastic binding) solvent containing clear glue. This isnt as easy to find as it used to, since some dumb people wanted to sniff it instead of creating art.

When you go to glue on the fingerboard, pull out two or three frets, clamp it in place, and drill some small holes through the fingerboard and slightly into the neck. Use some small brads to pin the neck so it cant move when clamping and give you one of those "oh sh...!" moments.

-r
R,

i didn't cut the slots. since this was a kit the slots were pre-cut. maybe they were cut a little too deep for the fret wire supplied? they look like they are flush to the board so the only way to pound deeper would depress into the fingerboard it looks like.

maybe i need this file? http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools...sing_File.html

in the video i show for binding they were using CA and i don't think it was metal to wood. i like the wood bindings on the body but for neck i see all of my instruments use plastic. which makes sense as it helps you slide you hand better up/down the neck while protecting from frets.

at the end of the day if i don't have binding on the neck i should feel nothing but wood as i slide my finger up and down the neck right? no matter how close i get with filing i still feel little nubs at each fret right now. it's driving me crazy. if i get anywhere close i wind up taking wood off. i hope it is just me using the wrong size/type file.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 03-18-2015, 06:33 AM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 3,125
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilo123 View Post
Ned, how do you get such a great curvature on the fretboard end? do you have something concave that you put the sandpaper on? do you have a curved chisel or something? your curves are of course much better than what i am doing and would love to know how you make such a perfect curve by hand. if you're willing to explain of course. i am very frustrated with mine and am contemplating just cutting it straight this time until i can figure out how to do a better curve. since you join the fingerboard 1st how to you cut off the fretboard to curve it? just sanding or finely with a chisel real slow? do you use the actual soundhole as a guide in that case? sand/chisel until you hit the edge of soundhole?
I often use a straight file when I want to file a curve. Mostly files, of coarse, mid, And then fine finishes. Last, I remove file marks with sand papers.

Usually I file to the soundhole but in the guitar shown I drew a line and filed to that. I can file and shape nicer lines than I can draw, in fact I am a crappy line drawer. I tell my students that the stroke with the tool is crucial! Straight or curved, it is all in the stroke. Good sense of spatial awareness is key, and this can be trained and developed.
__________________
----

Ned Milburn
NSDCC Master Artisan
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Build and Repair

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=