electrifying a harp

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by kurth

It's a Dusty Strings 26 string. I'm thinking multiple sources. First ...how many transducers would it take ? How often would you need a disk...every other string, or would there be enough signal to skip two strings , then a disk ? Journeytek has a reasonably priced setup for classicals with 4 disks. Would it be possible to use two or three separate pickup sets , or would they need to be 'matched' in some way ? What about the braided flexible piezos ? How much of that braid is actually working ? Because I installed a cheap chinese piezo into a guitar and that braid was quite long, much longer than the width of the saddle, like 4x. I'm thinking one, maybe two braids could do all strings, if the whole braid is sensitive. Obviously a small mic ...but I haven't been happy with mic'ing it so far. Pretty muddy. But the mic does resolve one difficult problem....how to amplify all the strings more or less equally, and might be a part of the whole solution.
I'd appreciate any feedback or esp ideas I haven't considered, or considered badly, solutions that might exist of which I'm unaware. thanks/k

You're actually overthinking this, which tends to happen a lot when it comes to piano & harp transducer amplification.

It can be easily accomplished with a Fishman Harp pickup, which is a small disc. A good interface, or pre-amp, is advised, but it can go straight into any good acoustic amplifier that will provide the correct impedance.

An acquaintance of mine, Roberto Perera, is a very well known player of the 36 string Paraguayan harp.

For many years Roberto was using the C-Ducer, which is pretty hard to come by, but check it out at http://www.c-ducer.com. It's a film transducer that is about 8" long.

Best,
Howard Emerson

[shufflebeat]

I remember the s-ducer well. Useful in certain circumstances but unwieldy and unresponsive compared to what's available nowadays.

I remember observing a certain "distance" in the sound which can be appropriate, maybe even more for the harp, but I can recreate that easily enough.

Differences between brands/prices seem to be down to consistency of quality control, the Fishman just looks like a single piezo. I wonder how different it would be to using a well placed £0.02 buzzer.

I'm very impressed that one element can cover an entire soundboard without variation in tone and would love to hear an audio example if any exist.

[kurth]

well that's what I would imagine a harp transducer to look like. I guess I have a question about transducers. Are the single harp discs different than a single out of a group? ...or is it only quality control and all the discs are more or less similar. Sorry for my ignorance but ....like what's the difference between k&k mini's and the $10 chinese on amazon ? Is it simply the groups are presented and matched better ? Or do they make the discs differently to account for sensitivity and sonic accuracy? Dusty Strings makes a single element pickup they sell for like 350....? Can a well placed $50 journeytek 4 element classical pickup achieve 90% of the sound quality using a preamp which could easily be mounted in the base of the harp? And I'd guess , for the sake of discussion, one would have to ask ....could the $10 chinese set on amazon ....no. sorry...I won't even go there jaja.

[Teleplucker]

Here's a video of our group playing, they harp has a single McIntyre disc going into a Red eye di. The video was recorded using the line in and some mic sound with a Zoom video recorder. The Mcintyre is not very expensive, and it works. My guitar has K&K PWM, the cello and violin have Barcus Berry PUP on the bridge.

[Chriscom]

Originally Posted by Teleplucker

Here's a video of our group playing, they harp has a single McIntyre disc going into a Red eye di. The video was recorded using the line in and some mic sound with a Zoom video recorder. The Mcintyre is not very expensive, and it works. My guitar has K&K PWM, the cello and violin have Barcus Berry PUP on the bridge.

That's lovely and also a very good recording. Harp sounds good!

[kurth]

yeah... sounds nice. Thought in first few seconds the bass notes were blooming somewhat but maybe that was the low cello entering. I guess maybe my question about the difference(s) in the disks themselves was far to broad and maybe deserves it's own thread. thanks

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by Teleplucker

Here's a video of our group playing...

Very enjoyable.

I've had some experience of putting those Barcus Berrys through impulse responses and would strongly recommend you explore the possibilities, including for yourself if you haven't done already.

It's difficult to make any kind of sensible judgements from a distance but there's a familiar inorganic sound to the initial transient of all the instruments which results in the high midrange getting quite congested. I'd expect the appropriate application of IRs would make for a less cluttered sound and more transparent 3D effect.

Very cool.

[Teleplucker]

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

Very enjoyable.

I've had some experience of putting those Barcus Berrys through impulse responses and would strongly recommend you explore the possibilities, including for yourself if you haven't done already.

It's difficult to make any kind of sensible judgements from a distance but there's a familiar inorganic sound to the initial transient of all the instruments which results in the high midrange getting quite congested. I'd expect the appropriate application of IRs would make for a less cluttered sound and more transparent 3D effect.

Very cool.

Not to derail this thread but tell me more about IRs. PM if you prefer. I'm always looking for something that works better.

[shufflebeat]

Check out between 4.15 - 6.30 (to avoid sales guff) of this video.

Tonedexter demo at SW

The guitar isn't the best example but might be informative. The improved signals would be a much better baseline to build a mix from.

I think this is fundamentally relevant to the thread so doesn't constitute a derail.

Make a large jug of coffee, lock all the doors and search "impulse response" on this forum, then come back with questions. There are a lot of well informed folks who pass by from time to time and are happy to share.

As I mentioned earlier, this topic has recently appeared on my horizon and I'll be exploring options with a very accomplished player. I expect to end up with a three element piezo and a Mooer Radar (or similar) IR loader for live gigs.

More food for thought:

https://youtu.be/RUx29JHrptk

Tonedexter for bowed instruments

[kurth]

This video makes a point (at least to me ) about splitting hairs. All of the versions sound great. Why ? Because the content sounds great to begin with. Put those players on cheap instruments....and they'll still sound great. I certainly couldn't hear $500 worth of difference.

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by kurth

This video makes a point (at least to me ) about splitting hairs. All of the versions sound great. Why ? Because the content sounds great to begin with. Put those players on cheap instruments....and they'll still sound great.

That sounds like an, "I reckon..." rather than an informed opinion.

The price of the instrument and the skill of the player has nothing to to with the performance of the TD (or any other IR based box). I'd point you back to the sound of the dry pickup and compare it to the TD'd sound. To me that's not splitting hairs, it's changing games. In fact, I would go so far as to say it you're using a pickup badly you might as well save your money, the benefit of having a decent instrument is not being translated.

Listen to the cello in the second video. That guy's a decent player but if I'd paid money to hear that piezo sound I'd want it back. The TD sound is very passable and I could make it sparkle. The fiddle player at the start does a very deliberate scratchy technique. If that was the dry signal every dog in the town would be hiding.

Some of the improvement can be achieved by careful EQ and compression (I know, I've done it many times) but it's that initial transient of the note/signal which is so difficult to retain while dealing with the piezo character.

It's also worth noting, and you can see this I the first video, that in ensemble the benefit is multiplied as each instrument in turn leaves space for the others.

I certainly couldn't hear $500 worth of difference.

For the record - a useable IR system can be set up for around £100 if you already have some recording peripherals.

[kurth]

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

That sounds like an, "I reckon..." rather than an informed opinion.

The price of the instrument and the skill of the player has nothing to to with the performance of the TD (or any other IR based box). I'd point you back to the sound of the dry pickup and compare it to the TD'd sound. To me that's not splitting hairs, it's changing games. In fact, I would go so far as to say it you're using a pickup badly you might as well save your money, the benefit of having a decent instrument is not being translated.

Listen to the cello in the second video. That guy's a decent player but if I'd paid money to hear that piezo sound I'd want it back. The TD sound is very passable and I could make it sparkle. The fiddle player at the start does a very deliberate scratchy technique. If that was the dry signal every dog in the town would be hiding.

Some of the improvement can be achieved by careful EQ and compression (I know, I've done it many times) but it's that initial transient of the note/signal which is so difficult to retain while dealing with the piezo character.

It's also worth noting, and you can see this I the first video, that in ensemble the benefit is multiplied as each instrument in turn leaves space for the others.



For the record - a useable IR system can be set up for around £100 if you already have some recording peripherals.

sorry....even after a second listening, there's differences but differences in quality ? ...or kind ? It's always "I reckon" cause it's always a matter of personal opinion...the hearing part. I simply didn't detect a big difference. Either would be acceptable , which from my own personal experience, in a mix when one instrument is in competition with other instruments, digital tonal differences become even harder to detect, esp when the music is engaging. And violins and cellos are maybe the hardest instruments . And my experience with piezo quack is it's unfortunate and avoidable by using a different solution. Piezos lying under the saddle....worse solution I've used. But from what I've read, under saddle piezos are the pickups that work best with IR's. And I'm aware of many cheaper pedal IR solutions , other than tonedexter...but that's what they were using. Probably the cheapest is the Nux Mighty Plug Pro. I think I need a good dpa close in mic, for guitars and as a component in a harp sound, as well. To me it always sounded good. With or without digital effects. thanks shufflebeat

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by kurth

...my experience with piezo quack is it's unfortunate and avoidable by using a different solution. Piezos lying under the saddle....worse solution I've used.

The dry piezo sound in the "bowed instruments" video I would consider very compromised and I struggle to imagine anyone would find it acceptable. The TD'd signal I would consider a good starting point for a live sound.

..I think I need a good dpa close in mic, for guitars and as a component in a harp sound, as well.

I suspect that we're not really coming up with different solutions so much as we're asking completely different questions. I'm not suggesting an IR processed piezo is better than a nice DPA 4099 but rather, where a mic can't be used for whatever reason judicious use of a good IR will make a significant improvement to a dry signal and the video just seems to make that obvious.

It may be that we just have very different taste in sound, which is fine. It's nice to explore the options with folks on a similar quest.

[kurth]

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

The dry piezo sound in the "bowed instruments" video I would consider very compromised and I struggle to imagine anyone would find it acceptable. The TD'd signal I would consider a good starting point for a live sound.



I suspect that we're not really coming up with different solutions so much as we're asking completely different questions. I'm not suggesting an IR processed piezo is better than a nice DPA 4099 but rather, where a mic can't be used for whatever reason judicious use of a good IR will make a significant improvement to a dry signal and the video just seems to make that obvious.

It may be that we just have very different taste in sound, which is fine. It's nice to explore the options with folks on a similar quest.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm an amateur musician. I'm not so interested in solutions for different situations. I only play music at home. And at 74 , not going to change. I was a working musician for about 3 years when I was a kid...and admittedly the worst string player in very accomplished early 60's cover band. But at 19 realized that the musician generally is paid last, and that was inconvenient to my sleepcycle.
...and I'm a firm believer in amateurism. It makes room for doing many different things. cheers

[Headway Audio]

Originally Posted by kurth

It's a Dusty Strings 26 string. I'm thinking multiple sources. First ...how many transducers would it take ? How often would you need a disk...every other string, or would there be enough signal to skip two strings , then a disk ? Journeytek has a reasonably priced setup for classicals with 4 disks. Would it be possible to use two or three separate pickup sets , or would they need to be 'matched' in some way ? What about the braided flexible piezos ? How much of that braid is actually working ? Because I installed a cheap chinese piezo into a guitar and that braid was quite long, much longer than the width of the saddle, like 4x. I'm thinking one, maybe two braids could do all strings, if the whole braid is sensitive. Obviously a small mic ...but I haven't been happy with mic'ing it so far. Pretty muddy. But the mic does resolve one difficult problem....how to amplify all the strings more or less equally, and might be a part of the whole solution.
I'd appreciate any feedback or esp ideas I haven't considered, or considered badly, solutions that might exist of which I'm unaware. thanks/k

Hi Kurth, my company Headway Music Audio Ltd in UK has made a small number of professional Harp pickups for 25 years. There is a continuous Piezo cable co-axial Piezo Pickup ( or can be 2 if needed) and a matched HE5
Class A pre-amplifier`. However, it does require professional Installation and routing for it to sit pressured, indirectly from strings, so it is quite a bit of work. Everyone has been delighted with them. The rejection of feedback, boom and background is maximised and body handling noises are less than stick ons. We are sponsor of this forum: headwaymusicaudio.com. John of Headway