Four-piece tops, stiffness, and tone

[GCWaters]

Originally Posted by PeteyPower16

Here is another video where I see a book-matched four piece wedge top on a plus model compared to a two piece top on a standard Koa model. I hear less difference here, but that could be due to the playing style being much heavier.
https://youtu.be/Mbd3xYKN7X8

It could be my ear, but again I hear warmth and bass from the four piece, but more brightness and glassy high end resonance from the two piece. It sounds like the four piece can be driven just a little harder. Both top constructions sound fairly similar with a classic koa tone though.

Maybe I am biased because I’m a strummer and because I have a four piece, but I prefer the four over the two in both of these videos (Casino and Alamo) and also when I have A/B’d these in person.

In terms of construction-only tone impacts (not considering string type, gauge, or playing style), the top piece count (two vs. four) might be third or fourth behind top wood, guitar size, and possibly bracing, so not a primary but definitely a secondary consideration if one had a choice.

So is this an example of what you’d call a four piece wedge top?

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...ial=2201062363

[PeteyPower16]

Originally Posted by GCWaters

So is this an example of what you’d call a four piece wedge top?

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...ial=2201062363

Yes, you can see the book-matched wedges underneath the corners of the bridge going to to the sound hole. That’s a very subtle one though!

[GCWaters]

Originally Posted by PeteyPower16

Yes, you can see the book-matched wedges underneath the corners of the bridge going to to the sound hole. That’s a very subtle one though!

You’ve put a lot of thought into this, but all I see is a book matched two piece top…

[PeteyPower16]

Originally Posted by GCWaters

You’ve put a lot of thought into this, but all I see is a book matched two piece top…

Believe it or not, that’s a double book-matched four piece top. It is disguised by some great wood working, but it is there. This has also been noted on other forums:

http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarfor...p?topic=8411.0

Perhaps it is a bit more apparent in these examples. Once you know what to look for, it starts to become apparent on a good minority of the 2021-2022 GS mini Koas.

https://www.guitarcenter.com/Taylor/...urce=4SOS0DRBA

https://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/Ta...urce=4SOS0DRBA

https://www.ryansguitarexperience.co...IaAripEALw_wcB

[GCWaters]

Originally Posted by PeteyPower16

Believe it or not, that’s a double book-matched four piece top. It is disguised by some great wood working, but it is there. This has also been noted on other forums:

http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarfor...p?topic=8411.0

Perhaps it is a bit more apparent in these examples. Once you know what to look for, it starts to become apparent on a good minority of the 2021-2022 GS mini Koas.

https://www.guitarcenter.com/Taylor/...urce=4SOS0DRBA

https://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/Ta...urce=4SOS0DRBA

https://www.ryansguitarexperience.co...IaAripEALw_wcB

Wouldn’t that increase costs significantly on what is probably a low profit margin guitar?

[Fathand]

Originally Posted by PeteyPower16;6927901

Perhaps it is a bit more apparent in these examples. Once you know what to look for, it starts to become apparent on a good minority of the 2021-2022 GS mini Koas.

[url

https://www.guitarcenter.com/Taylor/GS-Mini-Series-GS-Mini-e-Koa-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-Natural-1500000139792.gc?cntry=us&source=4SOS0DRBA[/url]

https://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/Ta...urce=4SOS0DRBA

https://www.ryansguitarexperience.co...IaAripEALw_wcB

I can see it in these examples, at first they look the 3 pc. tops then you notice the book match in the middle.

I am sure they save a lot of money doing this, might even be using left over pieces from other guitars. What is weird is that the backs look to be 2 piece. If it was me, I'd use the 2 pc. on top and the 4 pc. on back, both for looks and perceived structural integrity.

[GCWaters]

Originally Posted by Fathand

I can see it in these examples, at first they look the 3 pc. tops then you notice the book match in the middle.

I am sure they save a lot of money doing this, might even be using left over pieces from other guitars. What is weird is that the backs look to be 2 piece. If it was me, I'd use the 2 pc. on top and the 4 pc. on back, both for looks and perceived structural integrity.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm highly dubious.

First, I think that what you guys are seeing could just as easily be unusual figuring in what is already a highly figured tone wood.

Second, the lack of any hype from Taylor makes me even more doubtful. I mean, half the bandwidth of this forum goes to griping about Taylor's marketing machine. IMO, this is a much more significant change than the NT neck, the streaked ebony, the urban ash, or the V-Class bracing. There are multiple ways of attaching necks and multiple bracing patterns out there, as well as builders who do nice things with alternative woods, but moving away from the traditional two-piece top is huge. I have a hard time believing that they'd do it in stealth mode in what is a very popular model line for them. More likely we'd see, "Limited Edition Four Piece Tops!! Save the planet! Increased chromatic viscosity all across the fretboard!!!" or something like that.

So I applaud the efforts you're putting into this, and I look forward to seeing it resolved, one way or the other!!

[PeteyPower16]

Originally Posted by GCWaters

Wouldn’t that increase costs significantly on what is probably a low profit margin guitar?

Yes, it would increase construction costs, but equally, Taylor has a policy of wasting as little as possible and using good pieces of rare wood…to the point that they now sell Ebony fretboards. I would guess this is the motivation.

[PeteyPower16]

Originally Posted by Fathand

I can see it in these examples, at first they look the 3 pc. tops then you notice the book match in the middle.



I am sure they save a lot of money doing this, might even be using left over pieces from other guitars. What is weird is that the backs look to be 2 piece. If it was me, I'd use the 2 pc. on top and the 4 pc. on back, both for looks and perceived structural integrity.

The backs on these models are a layered veneer rather than a solid piece, which is why they get away with the two piece book-matched veneer on the back.

[GCWaters]

Take a look at this one:

https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitar...a#&gid=1&pid=1

On first glance, it looks like your description of a three piece wedge top. If you look closely, though, the wedge line isn't straight--it's fairly curved, so it's a naturally occurring line. Couldn't the other tops also be naturally occurring lines?

[PeteyPower16]

Originally Posted by GCWaters

Take a look at this one:



https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitar...a#&gid=1&pid=1



On first glance, it looks like your description of a three piece wedge top. If you look closely, though, the wedge line isn't straight--it's fairly curved, so it's a naturally occurring line. Couldn't the other tops also be naturally occurring lines?

Agreed: this one is clearly a two piece top with curved wood. There are many like that. However, the ones I linked previously show clear interruption of the wood grain in exactly the same place on all of these models.

To further confirm, (1) I personally own a GS mini with a four-piece top (I confirmed by looking inside, and there is very thin glue along these lines), (2), I have emailed Taylor and they have confirmed that some of the GS mini koas have four piece tops, and (3) in a previous post I’ve linked a recording of where Bob Taylor mentions four piece tops.

All of this (especially 1 and 2) confirms for me personally that there are four piece tops on at least some of these GS mini Koa models.

Why has Taylor not made a big splash about this? Perhaps they are taking a different approach than they did with the release of V bracing, considering the initial criticism that the V bracing announcement made. This change will be hard to sell as an improvement, so the approach could be different.

As for me, my interest is understanding how a four piece top would differ in tone, breaking in, and stability over time compared to a two piece top. I would be curious to hear your thoughts!

[GCWaters]

Originally Posted by PeteyPower16

Agreed: this one is clearly a two piece top with curved wood. There are many like that. However, the ones I linked previously show clear interruption of the wood grain in exactly the same place on all of these models.

To further confirm, (1) I personally own a GS mini with a four-piece top (I confirmed by looking inside, and there is very thin glue along these lines), (2), I have emailed Taylor and they have confirmed that some of the GS mini koas have four piece tops, and (3) in a previous post I’ve linked a recording of where Bob Taylor mentions four piece tops.

All of this (especially 1 and 2) confirms for me personally that there are four piece tops on at least some of these GS mini Koa models.

Why has Taylor not made a big splash about this? Perhaps they are taking a different approach than they did with the release of V bracing, considering the initial criticism that the V bracing announcement made. This change will be hard to sell as an improvement, so the approach could be different.

As for me, my interest is understanding how a four piece top would differ in tone, breaking in, and stability over time compared to a two piece top. I would be curious to hear your thoughts!

That's interesting that you have confirmation from Taylor, and I'd love to see pictures of the underside of your top.

I don't think there'd be any negative effect on stability--if anything, they might be more stable over time.

As for tone, the only reference I have is electric guitars. Gibson, for example, has used both one piece and two piece backs on Les Pauls (mahogany), as well as both two and three piece tops on them (maple). Virtually all of the comments on them that I've read are about appearance, not tonal quality (not all of the two and three piece tops were centered).

Fender used three piece bodies on Strats and teles without a whole lot of objections. At one point, though, they were really using multi-piece bodies on some of the cheaper line--6-7 pieces--and people were really upset about that and the potential impact on tone from all the glue. That was also a fairly common complaint about the foto-flame tops that they used.

So I don't know, they're interesting questions. I will say that I like the top on your Mini and if the ones you posted are also 3-4 piece tops, I don't have any problems with them. Part of that, though, may be because it's Koa. I wonder if I'd feel the same way about sitka or cedar, or anything with so much less figure?

Anyway, interesting topic and great discussion! I learned something today--thanks for bearing with all my questions!

[Sage Runner]

Gibson made some 3 and 4 piece tops in 30s on some budget models. Kalamazoo’s etc. even possibly a few Wartime Js snd Lg guitars. The bracing on the guitars didn’t change on those just because the tops weren’t 2 piece.

[Fathand]

Originally Posted by Sage Runner

Gibson made some 3 and 4 piece tops in 30s on some budget models. Kalamazoo’s etc. even possibly a few Wartime Js snd Lg guitars. The bracing on the guitars didn’t change on those just because the tops weren’t 2 piece.

Martin made D-18s in the 40s with 4 piece tops.

[PeteyPower16]

I found another video with a 4-piece top (plus) and 2-piece top (standard), the the same tonal nuances observed. The mic placement may also play a partial role on this one though. Those are both pretty Koa tops though!

https://youtu.be/yVVP08ompRI