I am thinking about my first build?

[Jimhar]

I have tentatively decided to do my first build using a b/s set of Koa that I have had for some time. I think it will make a very nice looking guitar paired with nice top which I have yet to decide on and I thought seeking some advice from you more experienced builders would be advisable. So if anyone has a favored sound appearance combo I would greatly appreciate any and all suggestions. Just as an opening to the discussion I would add that I do have on hand a selection of soundboard woods including some nice Sitka spruce, some Adirondack, Engelmann and Sinker Redwood so the hand written label says.
I know that tone is a personal thing but here i would appreciate what you might have to say about the combo you prefer with Koa and something of your reasoning if you would be so kind as to venture your opinion.

Thanks Jim

[Fathand]

I can't speak to the tone as I have not played a Koa guitar but appearance wise, a Koa top looks great on a Koa guitar.

I did have an all koa uke and it had a wonderful tone.

[redir]

Flip a coin.

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by redir

Flip a coin.

Well I guess that is one way to look at it. all of the tops that I have in hand all look very acceptable and probably would be fine. I just thought someone may have some notions worth consideration regarding any particular wood combination that might be more or less desirable. I guess my engineer may be showing looking for a reason. Silly me. I haven't even considered using a Koa top on the guitar. I guess I should think about that also. Having heard you say that I seem to remember reading somewhere about someone having an all Koa guitar. May work out. I only have a back and side set though. lol

[Fathand]

Originally Posted by Jimhar

Silly me. I haven't even considered using a Koa top on the guitar. I guess I should think about that also. Having heard you say that I seem to remember reading somewhere about someone having an all Koa guitar. May work out. I only have a back and side set though. lol

Koa is the traditional top on a koa guitar, Mahogany is another option which would look closer to koa than spruce.

Heres a 1933 Martin 00-18K



I was just in my basement looking at the koa board I bought a few years ago, trying to decide the best way to cut it around the imperfections to yield some sets.

[Bruce Sexauer]

It really doesn’t matter which typical conifer you choose for your top on your first guitar as long as it is a suitable piece of wood. All-Koa has challenges I would not recommend for a first build, with all respect to your other advisors.

[John Arnold]

You haven't mentioned the size or build style. That is at least as important as the woods used.
Intended use should also be considered.

[Will B.]

Dog gone Jimhar don't you have a mediocre set of mahogany to start with?
I'm not underestimating your talent!
The trail is littered with well intended wood.

[redir]

Originally Posted by Jimhar

Well I guess that is one way to look at it. all of the tops that I have in hand all look very acceptable and probably would be fine. I just thought someone may have some notions worth consideration regarding any particular wood combination that might be more or less desirable. I guess my engineer may be showing looking for a reason. Silly me. I haven't even considered using a Koa top on the guitar. I guess I should think about that also. Having heard you say that I seem to remember reading somewhere about someone having an all Koa guitar. May work out. I only have a back and side set though. lol

Word of advice. A friend of mine who is a very very smart aerospace engineer, even has his PHD in it, wanted to build a guitar and asked for advice doing so. It took him over a year to do it because everything had to be thought out to perfection first and then executed to perfection later. It ended up being a reasonably decent first guitar but.... My god man!

Luthier Alan Carruth is fond of saying, "Spruce is spruce," meaning that the middle range of spruce he tested for it's weight, stiffness and so on tends to all be the same through different species. So John brings up a good point asking what kind of guitar are you building? If it's a small parlor guitar then choose the piece of spruce that you have which is the least stiff along the grain. If it's a dred then pick the stiffer one. Regardless of the species.

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

It really doesn’t matter which typical conifer you choose for your top on your first guitar as long as it is a suitable piece of wood. All-Koa has challenges I would not recommend for a first build, with all respect to your other advisors.

I would be most interested to hear more about what difficulties I should be aware of in working with Koa so that I may plan on using it successfully in a future build. I appreciate your comments here and think I will rethink using this wood until I have had time to become more prepared for those unknowns that i hope you can find time to address in the future if you would be so kind. I would greatly appreciate any advise you could share with me as i have much more to learn.

Thanks Jim

[koolimy]

I heard that Western Red Cedar and Redwood can have difficulties with gluing, splitting, and denting, so I would avoid it for your first build. Spruce is generally pretty easy so I would go for one of the Spruces.

If you haven't done so already, I would classify the pieces of wood by comparing their weights and their flexibility. If you can take measurements and get values for stuff like modulus of elasticity, that would be really helpful. Hopefully somebody can help you take measurements if you are so inclined.

But even if you don't take measurements, at least I would see which top is heavier, which top is more flexible, etc. That'll help guide you as you decide which top you are going to use for which guitar. As Mr. Arnold mentioned, you need to understand what type of guitar you are making and what you'll be using it for. If you want to create a size 0 guitar for fingerstyle, you'll probably want a light piece of wood. If you want a dreadnought for bluegrass picking, you'll probably want to go heavier.

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

You haven't mentioned the size or build style. That is at least as important as the woods used.
Intended use should also be considered.

I neglected to mention that I intended to build a dread and am trying to look at the Martin D28 as a guide. I have one of those as you may recall from my previous post about repairs to that instrument which had substantial damage to the top. My particular use of interest would be in just returning to playing after having quit for so many years and learning finger style. So with that in mind I would be interested to hear your input on what I might consider in this first build as I have decided to move away from the Koa on this build. I think maybe it would be a smarter approach to listen to your ideas without a precondition as to what wood I have chosen. I do have somewhat of a selection that I would like to pick from as i have already spent the money for these woods. Here is a list of some of the stock I have in house.

Top Wood: Sitka, Adirondack, Engelmann, Birch, Sinker Redwood, Cedar

B/S sets: Honduran Mahogany,Wenge, Koa, Black Limba, Padauk, Brazilian
Tigerwood, Bubinga, Maple, East Indian Rosewood, Quilted
Mahogany, Monkeypod, Goncaloalves, Purple Heart, Brazilian
cherry,Honduran Rosewood, Zebrawood, Mahogany Figured

I have been spending time setting up my shop and getting needed specialty tools and along the way acquiring some wood. I'm just now getting somewhat able to breathe. There isn't an end to buying things you need is there?

Thanks Jim

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by redir

Word of advice. A friend of mine who is a very very smart aerospace engineer, even has his PHD in it, wanted to build a guitar and asked for advice doing so. It took him over a year to do it because everything had to be thought out to perfection first and then executed to perfection later. It ended up being a reasonably decent first guitar but.... My god man!

Luthier Alan Carruth is fond of saying, "Spruce is spruce," meaning that the middle range of spruce he tested for it's weight, stiffness and so on tends to all be the same through different species. So John brings up a good point asking what kind of guitar are you building? If it's a small parlor guitar then choose the piece of spruce that you have which is the least stiff along the grain. If it's a dred then pick the stiffer one. Regardless of the species.

I can surely relate to what you are saying! I try to fight the tendency to over analyse things and I tend to be more prone to falling into that trap with things I am not well versed in. If you learn anything in engineering it how to analyse something. It does become important when Life and Death are involved but not quite as necessary in guitar making. Point well taken but you must understand it becomes part of you. LOL

Your comments on stiffness and use are big help. You always seem to find your way to the heart of the issue. Always look forward to hearing your input.

Thanks Jim

[ProfChris]

Originally Posted by Jimhar

I would be most interested to hear more about what difficulties I should be aware of in working with Koa so that I may plan on using it successfully in a future build. I appreciate your comments here and think I will rethink using this wood until I have had time to become more prepared for those unknowns that i hope you can find time to address in the future if you would be so kind. I would greatly appreciate any advise you could share with me as i have much more to learn.

Thanks Jim

Straight grained koa usually bends quite easily.

Figured koa needs much more care - if there is a lot of curl then that is where it is likely to separate during bending. A metal bending strap is a must for curly grain, and even then there is some risk.

If this is your first time bending then you won't yet have the feel for when to pause and when to carry on. I'd suggest some practice bending - walnut bends about as easily as koa and is fairly cheap. You could cut a practice side in half and put as many tight bends as you can in each part. Then maybe do the same with mahogany, which can be quite tricky (or dead easy, it's a lottery!). Read up different techniques (soaking, spritzing, spraying dry, using SuperSoft) and try some out.

I'm saying all this because koa is hard to get, and matching your back if you break a side is likely near impossible.

The other point is thicknessing figured koa - I find the figure can sometimes tear out very easily, so you'll want to practice planing with a close set cap iron, and scraping, so you have an armoury of techniques to avoid this.

[Bruce Sexauer]

By all-Koa, I meant the Koa top, not the back and sides. Koa is a pretty ordinary back and side material, as far as the work goes. Hardwood tops are more variable from one piece to another and require evolved judgement skills if the guitar is to be properly functional. No one is likely to develop a big-picture guitar making concept w/o making quite a few guitars. One step at a time.