Are individual Emerald guitars unique?

[DethWshBkr]

Originally Posted by jdrnd

If you were blindfolded and somebody passed you one of the X-30s, would you be able to recognize if it was the one you liked?

Its interesting to hear about the resin issue and the difference in CF thickness between the 2 brands of guitar.

I could have yes, but thinking harder about it I think it was just a setup issue. Not quite the way I liked it. I don't know if it was a sound issue.

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by DethWshBkr

My RainSong has a body that is 10% as thick as the Emerald...and I think the tonality is different as a result.

Fascinating photos - care to share how you got them? And, are they to the same scale? 10% sounds pretty drastic.

I’d expect any given Rainsong to sound unlike any given Emerald, and that there would be a multitude of factors contributing to that difference - not just the side thickness.

[DethWshBkr]

Originally Posted by David Eastwood

Fascinating photos - care to share how you got them? And, are they to the same scale? 10% sounds pretty drastic.

I’d expect any given Rainsong to sound unlike any given Emerald, and that there would be a multitude of factors contributing to that difference - not just the side thickness.

The Emerald piece is from the side of my X30. I installed an LR Baggs Stagepro Anthem, so I had to of course cut a large hole in the side.

I was astonished how thick it was, so I removed the preamp from my RainSong, and then just put the piece of the emerald next to the RainSong.
That is 1 picture, for an exact comparison. The photo is direct scale.
Not 100% sure, but I am pretty confident the entire body is constructed the same, with that thicker material, and not 100% carbon fiber only

[KevinH]

Originally Posted by Quintus

My presupposition: Acoustic properties of wood varies greatly, but carbon fiber, very little by comparison.

The processes involved in building varies, so an Emerald will sound differently than a Rainsong. Short of asking Emerald about the question of consistent tone, or conducting your own independent study, it’s really just speculation....

At one point in my working career I spent a fair amount of time measuring the elastic and strength properties of carbon composites, which we found to be quite consistent (~10% variation if that) from one specimen to the next. That consistency isn't necessarily the case for all carbon composites, since it will depend on the skill of the person(s) doing the layups and curing. Wood, I'm sure, will have much more variation.

I think the OP has an interesting question. It is often stated that the tone of wood guitars, at least from the larger manufacturers, vary noticeably from one guitar to the next. I'm happy to assume that is the case - because we all know the elastic properties of a given type of wood can vary a lot, certainly much more than one would expect from carbon fiber. However, I've never been able to hear that difference for myself, partly because of my degraded hearing and because it is rare to find multiple copies of (even) wood guitars to evaluate. In a way I like the idea of this variability. I've managed to convince myself, with very little evidence, that I have a particularly good copy of a Taylor 522. I'd hate to think it was just like all the others .

Originally Posted by DethWshBkr

...Not 100% sure, but I am pretty confident the entire body is constructed the same, with that thicker material, and not 100% carbon fiber only

It would be interesting to have a chat with Alistair - maybe after enough Guinness that he'd be willing to share some bits about their build process. I know that many wood-guitar luthiers make the sides fairly rigid. I wonder if Alistair has done something similar.

[DethWshBkr]

Originally Posted by KevinH

It would be interesting to have a chat with Alistair - maybe after enough Guinness that he'd be willing to share some bits about their build process. I know that many wood-guitar luthiers make the sides fairly rigid. I wonder if Alistair has done something similar.

I actually had talked with him. I inquired about making them thinner to save weight, and such. I hadn't even realized I was looking at a grid matrix (since it IS resin filled, the section I cut had no voids at all - and with his carbon experience, I am sure he's gotten that process pretty good). He had mentioned that RainSong is completely carbon, which is why it's so thin. He uses two carbon layers, (which is likely all the Rainsong is) with the grid matrix. It does create a heavier instrument, and much thicker. He seemed to indicate that was just what he was looking for in the strength, construction, and sound of Emeralds.
The whole point of my asking is because I had wanted to see if they could more closely approach the weight of my RainSong. It weighs in (Black Ice Jumbo) at 4 lb 9 oz, and my X30 weighs in at 5 lb 13 oz, if I recall properly.

[DownUpDave]

Originally Posted by jdrnd

I just thought it was an interesting question.

I didn’t mean to sound dismissive, hence the . I think it is an interesting question as well.

[jdrnd]

Originally Posted by DownUpDave

I didn’t mean to sound dismissive, hence the . I think it is an interesting question as well.

I never thought you were dismissive.

[jdrnd]

A basic black X-20 guitar starts at $2250. Using the Guitar Configurator I could drive the price of a fully loaded X-20 to $6020. I suspect the average configured X-20 price is in the mid $3000 dollar range. These prices are not insubstantial.
If Emerald guitars with identical specs sound different, even if the guitars in question all sound "good" (good means different things to different people), then there are going to be guitar players that prefer one Emerald guitar's sound over another.
If all Emerald guitars with the same specs are indistinguishable, than there is no reason not to order online. If they are not indistinguishable than trying multiple instruments with the same or different specs would be a more desirable strategy before buying.

I suspect but don't know for a fact that Emerald scans these threads. If an Emerald Rep is reading this, perhaps they could weigh in on this discussion.

[KevinH]

Originally Posted by jdrnd

...If Emerald guitars with identical specs sound different, even if the guitars in question all sound "good" (good means different things to different people), then there are going to be guitar players that prefer one Emerald guitar's sound over another.
If all Emerald guitars with the same specs are indistinguishable, than there is no reason not to order online. If they are not indistinguishable than trying multiple instruments with the same or different specs would be a more desirable strategy before buying...

But then even if all Emerald, say X-20s, sounded identical (whatever that means) it would still be a big leap of faith buying online. YT recordings aren't very useful in figuring out what a guitar will sound like. Equally important, the nice organic feel of an Emerald can't be experienced online. Same for the tone that comes to the player from the upward facing sound hole. So, if there are noticeable variations among a given model, that would seem to me to be the smaller part of the issue of taking the leap and ordering w/o having been able to play one.

I understand your point, and it's an interesting question. If I could have played an X-20 before ordering mine, and I was confident it would sound like the one I'd played, I would have felt better about it. But I suspect there are many people that don't know or live near someone with an Emerald to try out.

My reject rate for guitars, after I've had them for a year or two, has been about the same whether I bought them blind or after playing them in the store. Sometimes they don't sound the same at home as they did in the store, or my tastes change, or after a while I decide I'm really not going to play the kind of music I bought the guitar for. I've had pretty good luck buying online, so I don't worry so much about guitar-guitar variations anymore. It worked out really well with my X-20.

I see you have an X-30. Have you been able to play another one to compare?

[RP]

The problem with a discussion about the uniqueness of the tonal qualities of the same model of Emerald guitar is how that sound is measured. I raised the question before, and I think it's work raising again. If we're talking about identical tone, on what is that based? Is it based on my hearing at 71, that of the average 25 year old or the measurements from some audiometric device? The other thing to keep in mind is that different doesn't necessarily mean better or worse. I previously owned two 2013 Taylor 524 First Edition guitars that were numbered sequentially. Of the 100 First Edition 524s that were produced, I was told by Taylor that <ten were built like mine without cutaway. That said, the two guitars sounded different to my then 63 year old ears, but each sounded really good...

[jdinco]

With humans involved in the process, I think they all have to be a little different, but is it enough to notice is the question.

[RP]

Originally Posted by jdinaz

With humans involved in the process, I think they all have to be a little different, but is it enough to notice is the question.

Exactly. Any tonal difference(s) that my 71 year old ears notice and those picked up by a twenty-something with normal hearing is going to vary. By the same token if some sort of audiometric device determines that two X20s have the same sound qualities, what are the chances that two individuals will still hear differences?

[jdrnd]

Originally Posted by KevinH

But then even if all Emerald, say X-20s, sounded identical (whatever that means) it would still be a big leap of faith buying online. YT recordings aren't very useful in figuring out what a guitar will sound like. Equally important, the nice organic feel of an Emerald can't be experienced online. Same for the tone that comes to the player from the upward facing sound hole. So, if there are noticeable variations among a given model, that would seem to me to be the smaller part of the issue of taking the leap and ordering w/o having been able to play one.

I understand your point, and it's an interesting question. If I could have played an X-20 before ordering mine, and I was confident it would sound like the one I'd played, I would have felt better about it. But I suspect there are many people that don't know or live near someone with an Emerald to try out.

My reject rate for guitars, after I've had them for a year or two, has been about the same whether I bought them blind or after playing them in the store. Sometimes they don't sound the same at home as they did in the store, or my tastes change, or after a while I decide I'm really not going to play the kind of music I bought the guitar for. I've had pretty good luck buying online, so I don't worry so much about guitar-guitar variations anymore. It worked out really well with my X-20.

I see you have an X-30. Have you been able to play another one to compare?

I have not been able to play another X-30. This is the first guitar that I have bought without playing first. On arrival it had a buzz near the 12th fret on the bass strings. I couldn't seem to adjust it the way I wanted it. The open "b" string made a weird sound. Once I got a Luthier to set it up with "Taylor specs", that's the Luthiers words, and adjust the "b" string nut slot, I have liked playing it. I play the X-30 more than my Taylor or Tak.

[jdrnd]

Originally Posted by RP

Exactly. Any tonal difference(s) that my 71 year old ears notice and those picked up by a twenty-something with normal hearing is going to vary. By the same token if some sort of audiometric device determines that two X20s have the same sound qualities, what are the chances that two individuals will still hear differences?

I like that question.
Although it would be cool to high tech analyze the sounds,
I would be interested to know if a blind folded person of any age could hear a difference between any two Emerald guitars of the same model and specs.
It doesn't matter if its subjective because as guitar players "subjective R US". If I had six X-30s supposedly identical to mine, would I find that one sounded better or different than another. Would I have a preference?

I think I would.... even if an audiometric device found no difference.

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by jdrnd

I like that question.
Although it would be cool to high tech analyze the sounds,
I would be interested to know if a blind folded person of any age could hear a difference between any two Emerald guitars of the same model and specs.
It doesn't matter if its subjective because as guitar players "subjective R US". If I had six X-30s supposedly identical to mine, would I find that one sounded better or different than another. Would I have a preference?

I think I would.... even if an audiometric device found no difference.

And if you were then presented with another half-dozen X30s to compare, and found one that you perceived to be ‘better’ than the one you chose before - what would you do then?

I got my X20 in 2018. I was delighted with it on receipt, and haven’t spent a millisecond wondering if there was another one out there that I might like more.