Neck reset needed?

Brushwood · #1 01-08-2022, 01:59 PM

Hi,
Is it possible to need a neck reset on an acoustic guitar when the heel isn’t pulling up from the body and the top looks good without any visible caving/folding in? I put a straight edge along the fretboard and it butts up about 1/8th inches below the top of the bridge. The saddle has been lowered quite a bit it seems to compensate for this. Anything else to look for because of this concern? This is a used guitar with a bolt on neck I was considering to buy. It’s a 2004 Seagull Artist Cameo.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

LHawes · #2 01-08-2022, 03:09 PM

I'm pretty sure the neck geometry can change enough to need a reset without any outward signs like the heel pulling away from the body and if you do a search on such repairs it's rare that the heel has visibly pulled away, but the internal geometry and neck angle has changed enough to require a reset. The signs described here are exactly those that require a reset.

Piercast · #3 01-08-2022, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brushwood

Hi,
Is it possible to need a neck reset on an acoustic guitar when the heel isn’t pulling up from the body and the top looks good without any visible caving/folding in? I put a straight edge along the fretboard and it butts up about 1/8th inches below the top of the bridge. The saddle has been lowered quite a bit it seems to compensate for this. Anything else to look for because of this concern? This is a used guitar with a bolt on neck I was considering to buy. It’s a 2004 Seagull Artist Cameo.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

Those necks may be bolted-on, but it does not mean that resets are more easily done. Some of those Godins have necks that are very hard to take apart. As their main tech once told me : "they are not meant to be taken apart for a reset". Expect lots of epoxy and interlocking wood parts precluding removal.

Piercast · #4 01-08-2022, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brushwood

Hi,
Is it possible to need a neck reset on an acoustic guitar when the heel isn’t pulling up from the body and the top looks good without any visible caving/folding in? I put a straight edge along the fretboard and it butts up about 1/8th inches below the top of the bridge. The saddle has been lowered quite a bit it seems to compensate for this. Anything else to look for because of this concern? This is a used guitar with a bolt on neck I was considering to buy. It’s a 2004 Seagull Artist Cameo.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

Those necks may be bolted-on, but I'm afraid it does not mean that resets are more easily done. Some of those Godins have necks that are very hard to take apart. As their main tech once told me : "they shouldn’t need a reset (sic) and they are not constructed in a way that allows them to be taken apart". Oh well... maybe they'd never need a reset, provided they were entirely made of steel. ;-) I'm afraid this means those guitars are meant to be left in the garbage can when the wood begins to move around a bit too much.

Expect lots of epoxy and interlocking wood parts precluding removal unless you saw right through all this wood. Not an easy job, and certainly more expensive than the guitar's value. This makes those unplayable and pretty much (economically) unfixable after a number of years.

SOME Godins CAN be taken apart for a reset, though. You might still have to fight liberal use of epoxy pretty much anywhere, but it can be done. Send the serial number to Godin's tech support, they’ll tell you. I most certainly wouldn’t buy a Godin in need of a reset without checking this first.

Piercast · #5 01-08-2022, 03:54 PM

Those necks may be bolted-on, but I'm afraid it does not mean that resets are more easily done. Some of those Godins have necks that are very hard to take apart. As their main tech once told me : "they shouldn’t need a reset (sic) and they are not constructed in a way that allows them to be taken apart". Oh well... maybe they'd never need a reset, provided they were entirely made of steel. ;-) I'm afraid this means those guitars are meant to be left in the garbage can when the wood begins to move around a bit too much.

Expect lots of epoxy and interlocking wood parts precluding removal unless you saw right through all this wood. Not an easy job, and certainly more expensive than the guitar's value. This makes those unplayable and pretty much (economically) unfixable after a number of years.

SOME Godins CAN be taken apart for a reset, though. You might still have to fight liberal use of epoxy pretty much anywhere, but it can be done. Send the serial number to Godin's tech support, they’ll tell you. I most certainly wouldn’t buy a Godin in need of a reset without checking this first.

Mbroady · #6 01-08-2022, 03:55 PM

Hey Brushwood
Im curious as to how the guitar plays, assuming you played it?
Regardless, If there is no saddle left to lower I would be concerned.
I guess it all depends of the asking price and if it takes into account the cost to reset a bolt on neck. Piercast advice is spot.
On. Call the company and ask how the neck is attached.

I have a Older Furch with a bolt on neck (not glue) that needed a neck reset. It was relatively cheap compared to a glued on neck.

Rudy4 · #7 01-08-2022, 05:52 PM

I'm not sure what year they went to the epoxied non-resettable neck joint. The bolts are used to hold them in place as the epoxy sets and are left in for additional strength.

True bolt-on necks are no problem to reset, not the epoxied heel joint necks, though.

Fathand · #8 01-08-2022, 06:02 PM

The Godin 5th Ave that was brought to me for repair the neck was sloppily dovetailed with very little epoxy and the neck had practically fallen out. Looked like it had been "clamped" with 2 staples that had been removed somehow during assembly.

About 1/32" movement at the heel of a guitar can cause 1/8" difference at the bridge but top bellying is a likely cause too.

Brushwood · #9 01-09-2022, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudy4

I'm not sure what year they went to the epoxied non-resettable neck joint. The bolts are used to hold them in place as the epoxy sets and are left in for additional strength.

True bolt-on necks are no problem to reset, not the epoxied heel joint necks, though.

From researching this some I found out Seagull started using the neck epoxy on their 2006-present guitars. Since mine is a 2004 it should be a bolt on. I’ll email [email protected] with the serial # and find out for sure.

Brushwood · #10 01-09-2022, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbroady

Hey Brushwood
Im curious as to how the guitar plays, assuming you played it?
Regardless, If there is no saddle left to lower I would be concerned.
I guess it all depends of the asking price and if it takes into account the cost to reset a bolt on neck. Piercast advice is spot.
On. Call the company and ask how the neck is attached.

I have a Older Furch with a bolt on neck (not glue) that needed a neck reset. It was relatively cheap compared to a glued on neck.

Going to email Seagull and find out. I read it’s the 2006 and on that have the epoxied neck attachment. The guitar is pretty quiet with a muted base response it seems. Possibly because of the neck angle and lowered saddle causing some of this for various reasons?

redir · #11 01-09-2022, 06:37 PM

In fact a neck reset is 95% of the time is needed because of top/neck block/body deformation over time rather then a bad neck joint.

That sounds bad by your description but a good guitar tech or luthier who can see it in person would be able to access it for you and diagnose the patient.

ChrisN · #12 01-10-2022, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brushwood

From researching this some I found out Seagull started using the neck epoxy on their 2006-present guitars. Since mine is a 2004 it should be a bolt on. I’ll email [email protected] with the serial # and find out for sure.

If it's a reset that's needed, yours is one of the "easy" ones that predates the joint/epoxy change date.

You might find this post helpful.
https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=174184

John Arnold · #13 01-10-2022, 12:48 PM

Not all guitars have perfect neck angles from the factory. If it is borderline, especially for low action, it doesn't take much body distortion to create the need for a reset.
In the extremely rare case of a neck joint failure, it will be readily apparent, due to a gap appearing between the heel and the body.

Piercast · #14 01-10-2022, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Not all guitars have perfect neck angles from the factory. If it is borderline, especially for low action, it doesn't take much body distortion to create the need for a reset.
In the extremely rare case of a neck joint failure, it will be readily apparent, due to a gap appearing between the heel and the body.

Hello John,
The guitar is nearly 20 years old. my shop I s in Quebec City, so I see a lot of those Godins and they are often in need of resets sooner than this. Joint failure is rarely, if ever seen, and at Godin someone is a great fan of epoxy for just about anything, including fretboard extensions with bolt-on heels... The geometry of this one has simply moved with time it seems. I'm afraid they are designed to ease manufacturing, not with a view to long-term serviceability.

Rudy4 · #15 01-11-2022, 08:42 AM

When discussing the epoxied neck joint it's important to mention that Art & Luthierie claims that the internal bracing was re-designed to totally eliminate the need for the standard neck reset. They did not engineer in "planned obsolescence".

How accurate their claims about the change in top bracing eliminating the eventual shift in geometry has yet to be seen, but the top bracing is NOT the same as the standard joint that does effect neck angle over the long haul.