Mix panning strategy for X-Y mic placement

[zenpicker]

I've recorded for a long time with a close-miked, spaced-pair SDC setup (Peluso P-28s), adding an LDC (ADK tube A51TC) out front for extra warmth and low end. Sometimes, I'll admit, I throw in a Neumann KM184 just for more punch, and more options while mixing..and because it's there (worst excuse ever!).

In the mix I usually pan the P28 spaced pair hard left and right, the ADK in the center, and the KM184 slightly toward the bout end or in the center. ADK and KM184 are dialed really low in the mix; it's mostly the P28s.

Now I'm starting to play with an X-Y placement for the P28s. That seems to get a narrower stereo field, as I'd expect, but I like the simplicity and clarity of the setup, and there are no phase worries.

My question is, how do people typically pan X-Y mics in the mix, given the stereo field differences? My ears are truly undecided....

[ChuckS]

Like you said, X-Y produces a narrow stereo image. I would suspect most all would pan the mics hard left and hard right.

[zenpicker]

Thanks, ChuckS. My instinct as well.

Now here's an interesting version of X-Y (sort of) on an Antoine Dufour recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00RgZOlD0DI

Appears to be an LDC crossed with an SDC in a loose X-Y config? At first glance they looked like the same mic, but the one on the left has a much longer housing/grille. Any guesses what they are? I certainly dig the sound.

[Doug Young]

For XY, I'd always pan hard left and right - I'd actually record to a stereo track, so you basically have no choice. Let the mics do their thing as far as the stereo image.

I'm not certain, but I think that DuFour video is misleading. He says he has 2 mics, one on the neck and one on the bridge, with a 3rd (Royer) in the middle. I think what you're seeing is the neck+middle mic. You can't see his bridge mic in the video. So if I'm right, he's really using spaced pairs with a middle mic, something I do all the time as well.

The look of those mics is a bit confusing, but the Charter Oak is a pencil mic, so here, it's aimed at the neck/body joint. The Royer R10 is a side-address mic, so it's also aimed at the guitar, almost in the same direction as the Charter Oak, but since it's wider, and a ribbon, it's sort of more aimed at the body a bit more.

[min7b5]

I think that video is a mid/side array on it's side. He's got the R10 picking up in a vertical figure eight and the other mic in the conventional neck joint zone. At least that's what I think is happening (and he might have a piezo too?). I've tried this and still preferred the figure eight in front of the soundhole picking up horizontally, but's pretty cool for sure.

[Doug Young]

That was my first thought when I saw it, but the mics don't work out, and this is what he says in the description:

"I used 3 mics on this recording:
Charter Oak M900T (around neck position) panned Right
Charter Oak E700 (around lower bout) Panned Left
Royer R-10 (around neck) Panned Center"

[zenpicker]

Thanks, guys. Since I watched the video as an embed I didn’t see whatever description or comments the player left - it seems he was pretty clear on what he used. His sound and this discussion has got me thinking about ribbon mics again - never used one but have always been intrigued. Thanks for the illuminating discussion.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by zenpicker

Thanks, guys. Since I watched the video as an embed I didn’t see whatever description or comments the player left - it seems he was pretty clear on what he used. His sound and this discussion has got me thinking about ribbon mics again - never used one but have always been intrigued. Thanks for the illuminating discussion.

I very seldom do X/Y but think most pan it Hard right and left..

I mostly do spaced pair (of ribbons btw) and because I sing also when I do my most of my video series, I often record a guitar and vocal at the same time and thus have my vocal LDC center ( which also picks up some guitar bleed) so basically what Doug was describing a 3 mic guitar situation.

In the video below it is like what Doug was saying spaced pair and a mid mic also..

The camera angle is a bit off, and the LDC is actually pretty close to center between the ribbons (panned Hard left and right )




This video is more typical but still more or less spaced pair with a mid guitar/vocal mic. and the ribbons doing double duty for recording both acoustic and electric guitars ( the electric guitar has the same space pair config -- BUT is positioned vertical to catch both speaker cabinets of the stack )

[zenpicker]

Kev, thanks for taking the trouble to post those videos. Very helpful, especially #1, where the mics are more easily isolated. I sure like the sound you're getting...both sonically and musically. I'm afraid you may be encouraging my ribbon mic GAS!

Cheers,
Edward

Originally Posted by KevWind

I very seldom do X/Y but think most pan it Hard right and left..

I mostly do spaced pair (of ribbons btw) and because I sing also when I do my most of my video series, I often record a guitar and vocal at the same time and thus have my vocal LDC center ( which also picks up some guitar bleed) so basically what Doug was describing a 3 mic guitar situation.

In the video below it is like what Doug was saying spaced pair and a mid mic also..

The camera angle is a bit off, and the LDC is actually pretty close to center between the ribbons (panned Hard left and right )




This video is more typical but still more or less spaced pair with a mid guitar/vocal mic. and the ribbons doing double duty for recording both acoustic and electric guitars ( the electric guitar has the same space pair config -- BUT is positioned vertical to catch both speaker cabinets of the stack )