Shortening scale length

[FatBear]

If I want a shorter scale length, can I replace the first fret with a taller one, essentially making it into a zero fret? Obviously I can, but what problems might occur?
Thanks.

[Bill Pillmore]

I did that with an extra neck I had. Actually I didn’t do the raised first fret, I just put a capo on it and drilled and installed bright plastic side dots one fret up. So now if I do want the long scale I still have it and just use the other side dots.

[Wuchak]

Originally Posted by FatBear

If I want a shorter scale length, can I replace the first fret with a taller one, essentially making it into a zero fret? Obviously I can, but what problems might occur?
Thanks.

Try tuning down 1/2 step and putting a capo on the first fret. This will get you the slacker feel of the shorter scale length with the guitar as is. As a bonus you can take of the capo and have Eb in open chords which is a great key. All the normal keys sound great played down a half-step. Adds a little darkness to them.

If you decide to try the new first fret plan you'll want to cut the slots in the nut a lot deeper so they just clear the fretboard. Right now they are cut high enough to clear the fret. You'd want the strings to come out of the slot and angle up to the fret. It seems like a risky modification, in that you are likely to end up with something that sounds and plays poorly, when you could have just used a capo.

I often detune a 1/2 step and capo one when practicing to make it a little easier on my fingers. Then when I want to dig into the strings with the pick, where they would buzz with the looser strings, I go back up to concert pitch.

[FatBear]

I'm not really after a 6 string guitar with a shorter scale length. I want to try a 5 string tenor guitar, but cannot justify the cost. The regular 4 string tenor too often lacks that root tonic in some chords. 5 string tenors are always custom and very rare, so I can't just go try one out. What I was hoping to do is get a used 3/4 size guitar and make a new nut and bridge for the 5 string pattern, file/sand the neck to the right width, create a zero fret to shorten the scale to around 20 to 21 inches, and use that for a while. From that I will either learn that I can justify a custom 5 string tenor or I will learn that I don't really want one. Either way, it should be fun to try.

So back to my original question: if I replace the first fret with a taller one, essentially making it into a zero fret what problems might occur?

Obviously the dots will be in the wrong place, but I don't really need the dots, so a black sharpie pen will take care of that.

But will I run into any real playability problems? Will the extra long space between the zero fret and the nut cause anything weird?

[redir]

I don't think you will get a proper back angle on the first fret. You will still need a nut of some sort to guide the strings to the tuners. If it's a straight pull peg head then that would be better but still... I think you will need to remove the fretboard material from the nut to the first fret and install a nut just behind the new zero fret.

[FatBear]

If I remove the original nut and put my new one up the neck, the strings will drag where they cross where the old nut was. What about these options?:

1. Put my new nut (with my string sizes and spacing) in original nut location and then capo at the fret that gives me the scale length I want.

2. File the original nut completely off (like a really short blank nut) just to help bend the strings over the hump and then install a zero glide nut at the fret position that gives me the scale length I want. I wouldn"t remove any fretboard material other than making a wide enough "fret slot" for the nut.

Neither of these puts the neck bend right behind the zero position, but neither does a capo on a normally configured guitar.

[Silly Moustache]

Hi,
Martin introduced the dread (under theor own name) in 1931, and the modfied version in 1934.

Gibson introduced the original Jumbo in 1934.

The "O" J shape seems to have been influenced by the original dreadnought which leads lots pf people ti use the term "slope shoulder" to refer to both Jumbo styles and original Dreadnought styles.

Many, including some makers refer to Jumbo styles as slope shoulder dreads. This seems as illogical to me as describing a car as a Chevrolet Mustang or a Ford Camaro (I don't know much about American cars).

I remember chatting to bill Collings during his short visit to the UK in 2015, and he was very enthusiastic about his new bracing methods on his Jumbo CJ series, which frankly, I didn't understand.

Question: Would luthiers/techs explain to me what differences there are between the bracing methods of the original Dreadnought and original Jumbo bracing methods?

Also - did Gibson "copy" the bracing, construction methods of the jumbo from the dreadnought?

Thanks in advance.

[FatBear]

I think you may have posted that last one in the wrong thread...

[tadol]

Why not just use a capo?

[FatBear]

Well I was hoping for something a bit more permanent. I am thinking about this as an experiment to decide about a real 5 string tenor, but I'm not rich and it will probably still be a while. Since I have to redo the nut and bridge, anyway, I thought I'd do my best with the whole conversion.

[John Arnold]

You don't want to raise the first fret, because that will make the guitar too hard to play.
I would remove the first fret, then saw off the fingerboard. Once that section of the fingerboard is removed, just install a new nut that is slotted for 5 strings. That should give sufficient break angle across the nut, but if not, install string trees (like a Fender).

[FatBear]

String trees. Now there's something I hadn't thought about. Thanks.

I'm still worried that the strings will drag across the angle where the nut used to be and buzz. That's why I was thinking about filing down the nut so it is just proud of being flush or using something else really slippery to guide the strings around that bend. I'll take a look at my guitar and see if it looks like it would clear with the fretboard gone.

I suppose I could get some roller string trees (just learned about these) and use them with the strings on top to guide over the bend and then in the normal configuration (strings underneath) just behind the nut. I guess it will take a while to digest this.

[Dino Silone]

Originally Posted by FatBear

I'm not really after a 6 string guitar with a shorter scale length. I want to try a 5 string tenor guitar, but cannot justify the cost. The regular 4 string tenor too often lacks that root tonic in some chords. 5 string tenors are always custom and very rare, so I can't just go try one out. What I was hoping to do is get a used 3/4 size guitar and make a new nut and bridge for the 5 string pattern, file/sand the neck to the right width, create a zero fret to shorten the scale to around 20 to 21 inches, and use that for a while. From that I will either learn that I can justify a custom 5 string tenor or I will learn that I don't really want one. Either way, it should be fun to try.

So back to my original question: if I replace the first fret with a taller one, essentially making it into a zero fret what problems might occur?

Obviously the dots will be in the wrong place, but I don't really need the dots, so a black sharpie pen will take care of that.

But will I run into any real playability problems? Will the extra long space between the zero fret and the nut cause anything weird?

Doesn’t a 3/4 sized guitar already have something like a 19” scale length? (.75 x 25.5 = 19.125) Maybe all you need to do is make a new nut and deal with the saddle. If you find a 3/4 sized guitar with a trapeze tailpiece, this becomes super-easy. If not, you can always add one, though you might not get a great break angle over the new saddle.

Am I defining 3/4 sized guitar incorrectly? If so, there are still tons of guitars with 19” or so scale lengths out there - they’re mostly for kids. But you can find a used one for practically free, and all you need to do is deal with the nut, tailpiece and saddle/bridge issues. A few hours in the shop.

[FatBear]

Originally Posted by Dino Silone

Doesn’t a 3/4 sized guitar already have something like a 19” scale length? (.75 x 25.5 = 19.125) Maybe all you need to do is make a new nut and deal with the saddle.

That's what I thought at first, but all of them seem to spec between 21.5 and 22.75 inch scale length. Move the nut to the first fret and that puts me at about the length I'm after. That 22.75" one is the Baby size from Taylor. Their travel size (Mini) is 23.5". Tenor A strings (.009 or .010) have a lot of breaking issues even at 23", so even that is too long.

If you find a 3/4 sized guitar with a trapeze tailpiece, this becomes super-easy. If not, you can always add one, though you might not get a great break angle over the new saddle.

I looked into 3/4 size archtops with the floating bridge and trapeze tailpiece. Being a mandolin player (don't tell anyone!) I've made bridges and am comfortable with floating ones. But few 3/4 size models have ever been made and they are usually thin ones with electronics which I don't need. I want a big enough body to generate a nice acoustic sound. And they tend to be quite expensive for experimenting on!

I know of one guitar made by Herb Taylor in CO which used a floating bridge on a flattop body. (https://www.herbtaylor.com/instrumen...orguitar/i235/) He did something tricky to give the necessary downward pressure, but it was still very light pressure. The sound was magical, but it seemed to take forever for him to sell it so I doubt he's made another. And it required a very lightly built guitar to work. I don't think I want to try duplicating his bridge.

But you can find a used one for practically free, and all you need to do is deal with the nut, tailpiece and saddle/bridge issues. A few hours in the shop.

This was my hope for experimentation purposes, but unless you know of one with around a 20" scale length I am going to have to shorten it, too. I suppose if I got a cheap enough one another alternative would be to cut off the peghead, remove the fretboard and truss rod, shorten the neck and truss rod, and put it all back together again. But I'd really like to avoid all of that!

[Dino Silone]

Originally Posted by FatBear

That's what I thought at first, but all of them seem to spec between 21.5 and 22.75 inch scale length. Move the nut to the first fret and that puts me at about the length I'm after. That 22.75" one is the Baby size from Taylor. Their travel size (Mini) is 23.5". Tenor A strings (.009 or .010) have a lot of breaking issues even at 23", so even that is too long.

I have a guitar sitting next to me right now (thought it was 3/4 size, based on the arithmetic I did in my last post, but maybe it’s considered something else?), and it has a 19” scale length. It’s a “Johnson” guitar that I got for my son when he was about 7 years old. If you go to Guitar Center or somewhere like that, you’ll see a bunch of guitars like that for well under $100. And of course, Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace have tons of them for practically nothing because kids outgrow them or get bored.

Most of them won’t have trapeze tailpieces and floating bridges, but that’s not a show-stopper. If you’re not picky about having the strings centered on the neck, you could just string it with 5 strings using the existing bridge peg holes for strings 1-5. If you need to, you could just pick up a new nut and saddle blank set. No matter what, if you start with a 6-string guitar, you’d have some pretty wide string spacing if you did try to center 5 strings on it.

The good news for you (maybe) is that a lot of these kid’s guitars have very narrow nuts - like 1 5/8. So, if you were willing to do some bridge surgery (like filling in the existing peg holes and drilling 5 centered, equally spaced ones), then you could have the strings centered on the neck without having ridiculously wide string spacing. You’d still have to cut a new nut blank, but that’s pretty easy. And ditto for shaping a new saddle.