i am confusing myself by thinking about BPM

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

4/4 has sub beats. 2/2 doesn't.

HI Rick...

Could you please explain why 2/2 time would not have sub beats (perhaps if you define what qualifies a sub-beat in your mind I'll understand).

I never treat the time signature as my only source to decide how I feel/count a piece. If the time signature is listed as 4/4, but the piece has a decided two-feel or swing, I'll just count it in my head as 2, and feel/play it as 2 - or swing it regardless of what it was listed as on the chart/score.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

HI Rick...

Could you please explain why 2/2 time would not have sub beats (perhaps if you define what qualifies a sub-beat in your mind I'll understand).

I never treat the time signature as my only source to decide how I feel/count a piece. If the time signature is listed as 4/4, but the piece has a decided two-feel or swing, I'll just count it in my head as 2, and feel/play it as 2 - or swing it regardless of what it was listed as on the chart/score.

Read up: https://www.inkling.com/read/the-enj...rt-1/chapter-2

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Read up: https://www.inkling.com/read/the-enj...rt-1/chapter-2

Hi rick...
So you and your article still did not answer my question. The only reference to sub-division of beats in the linked article were referring to triplet not duplet, and simple meters versus compound meters. And it indicates that simple meters DO have duplet subdivisions.

None of that lines up with what I'm asking you about. None of it seems to apply to 4/4 versus 2/2.

I'm just asking you why you think 2/2 would not have sub-beats (which are never referenced in the article you linked). Even simple meters are subdivided into at least 2 beats.

[posternutbag]

Now I'm confused. I was a band geek; I played many marches; I constantly subdivided the beat. It seems intuitively obvious to me that in a syncopated march you have to subdivide the beat beyond simple upbeat/downbeat.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by posternutbag

Now I'm confused. I was a band geek; I played many marches; I constantly subdivided the beat. It seems intuitively obvious to me that in a syncopated march you have to subdivide the beat beyond simple upbeat/downbeat.

Hi pnb...

Beginning students learn to count | 1-& 2-& | 1-& 2-& | and

|1-e-&-a 2-e-&-a |1-e-&-a 2-e-&-a | or

|1-&-a 2-&-a | |1-&-a 2-&-a |

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi rick...
So you and your article still did not answer my question. The only reference to sub-division of beats in the linked article were referring to triplet not duplet, and simple meters versus compound meters. And it indicates that simple meters DO have duplet subdivisions.

None of that lines up with what I'm asking you about. None of it seems to apply to 4/4 versus 2/2.

I'm just asking you why you think 2/2 would not have sub-beats (which are never referenced in the article you linked). Even simple meters are subdivided into at least 2 beats.

It's really pretty simple Larry.
4/4: S-W-M-W
2/2: S-W
M is the sub-beat (or sub-accent if you will).
Yeah, I know you can choose to accent anyway you want to despite the time signature - just talking about conventions.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

It's really pretty simple Larry.
4/4: S-W-M-W
2/2: S-W
M is the sub-beat (or sub-accent if you will).
Yeah, I know you can choose to accent anyway you want to despite the time signature - just talking about conventions.

Hi rick...

It's not that one 'can' choose to not accent or sub-divide beats (you were talking of sub beats, not accented beats).

Players 'do' sub-divide beats. And it's not random, and how it's being portrayed by the player or felt by the person playing often projects it to the listeners.

I'm still trying to understand your assertion that 4/4 has sub beats and 2/2 doesn't. Which conventions would dictate otherwise?

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi rick...

It's not that one 'can' choose to not accent or sub-divide beats (you were talking of sub beats, not accented beats).

Players 'do' sub-divide beats. And it's not random, and how it's being portrayed by the player or felt by the person playing often projects it to the listeners.

I'm still trying to understand your assertion that 4/4 has sub beats and 2/2 doesn't. Which conventions would dictate otherwise?

In mentioning a difference between 2/2 and 4/4 I was referring to a difference in accenting, so nix the sub-beat term if that helps and replace with sub-accent.

Now referring to the original question about 4/4 using just half notes, the accenting would be the same as 2/2. You could use 2/2 but usually cut time is used in
up tempo music where, for one thing, counting 4/4 would be more difficult.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

…referring to the original question about 4/4 using just half notes, the accenting would be the same as 2/2. You could use 2/2 but usually cut time is used in up tempo music where, for one thing, counting 4/4 would be more difficult.

Hi Rick...
That's what I was looking for (your explanation of your use of the term). Thanks for the explanation.

The term 'Cut Time' is used differently in different circles…classical musicians often use it to refer to playing with a feeling of 'two' whereas jazzers often use it to indicate double tempo.

I was just trying to understand what you were trying to convey referring to beats-per-minute.