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  #1  
Old 10-01-2013, 12:11 AM
Fuzzy125 Fuzzy125 is offline
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Default When to Start Improvising?

All the recent activity and posts on Play about Toby's advanced lessons on playing without tabs and improvising has got me itching to try my hands at improvising. At the same time, I'm nearing the end of Happy Traum's Easy Steps to Acoustic Blues, where he encourages the student to "play around" with the blues scale; don't play the same thing twice. I seem to be getting mixed messages. On one hand, improvising seems to be billed for the advanced players. On the other hand, there are instructors who encourage beginners to fool around with the blues scale, the earlier the better. Which is it? Or is it just improvising at different levels?

PS: I just finished reading EllaMom's "Fingerboard Decoder" thread and came up for some air. I didn't read it before posting my question. It answered a lot of questions I have, but still, if you guys have other comments to add, please!

Last edited by Fuzzy125; 10-01-2013 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:19 AM
pgilmor pgilmor is offline
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Improvising is for advanced players because they are better at it. They probably got that way by improvising when they weren't better at it.
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:32 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Improvising is for anyone. If you want to, do it. You don't have to be technically proficient, or know any theory, just have a feeling for fooling around.
I'm definitely with Mr Traum on this. It's simply about playing something your way. Taking possession of a tune or chord sequence and seeing what you feel like doing with it. Experimenting with the notes to make stuff that sounds good. You know what sounds wrong, of course, so just go for the other stuff...

Advanced players are just better at it, obviously. But you have to start somewhere; sooner the better.
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:47 AM
saxonblue saxonblue is offline
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I think you're going well out of your way to find "mixed messages".

Start whenever you want. Stretch above your comfort zone practicing, hover just below it performing.

No rules, except enjoy yourself. Don't overthink it too much.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy125 View Post
...improvising seems to be billed for the advanced players. On the other hand, there are instructors who encourage beginners to fool around with the blues scale, the earlier the better. Which is it? Or is it just improvising at different levels?
Hi Fuzzy...

I teach. I'd no more tell a player to delay improvising till you know what you are doing than I'd tell a young child they cannot make up stories till they know how to read and write.

There is no 'rule book' for this kind of thing. If you want to mess around with blues or folk or rock or classical, I say mess around and have fun.

At the same time, so some organized playing as well so your skill set grows. Then you have better tools to mess around with.


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Old 10-01-2013, 08:47 AM
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IMO improvising too soon and too much and you may stunt your playing development and range of skills. Doing things your way all the time and you will miss things others have done. Getting a range of pieces (especially instrumentals) down the way they were written is a way to broaden your playing. Mix it up with some improvising, some more strict study.
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:51 AM
JanVigne JanVigne is offline
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" I seem to be getting mixed messages. On one hand, improvising seems to be billed for the advanced players. On the other hand, there are instructors who encourage beginners to fool around with the blues scale, the earlier the better. Which is it? Or is it just improvising at different levels?"



Therefore, "When do I start improvising?"





The answer, IMO, is never and as soon as possible.



I find this word "improvisation" to be interesting. Please, provide a few answers regarding this "improvisation" thing.






What do you feel "improvisation" means? Why would you want to do it?

Can you name three guitar slingers whose improvisational skills you admire? Can you say why you admire them?

Have you tried to improvise? What were the results?






Thanks, your feedback will be greatly appreciated.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:12 AM
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IMO improvising too soon and too much and you may stunt your playing development and range of skills.
Hi rick-slo

I could see that as a very-remote-possibility if an otherwise diverse and curious player stops growing musically, and only improvises.

Otherwise, why would it stunt one's growth and skills? Even after reading your post and thinking about it, I guess I still see improvising as a way of expanding ones range of skills and development.


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Old 10-01-2013, 12:28 PM
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Interesting thread...to me improvising is just the ability to play what you hear in your head without thinking about the theory behind it. I think it's the ultimate in musical expression.

To arrive at that point takes a combination of theory, practice and beg-borrowing-stealing to find your own voice.

It's very much like learning to talk; start babbling phrases as an infant, pick up words and expressions from those around you, fine tune it with a formal education, then make it your own as you mature.

After that comes the hard part: having something interesting to say. We've all sat through (and played) over indulgent solos much the same as we've heard long, boring, over indulgent speakers. The trick is to make it memorable and unique.
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:37 PM
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Hi rick-slo

I could see that as a very-remote-possibility if an otherwise diverse and curious player stops growing musically, and only improvises.

Otherwise, why would it stunt one's growth and skills? Even after reading your post and thinking about it, I guess I still see improvising as a way of expanding ones range of skills and development.

One of the first rules is to absorb. I have heard a number of people who have started out doing their own thing, and continue to do their own thing to the exclusion of what's around them - their playing usually consists of dabbling and noodling, is unfocused and unpolished. Now, if they are also working on faithfully absorbing material from other sources, figuring out how they go, picking up new outside techniques, styles, and some practical theory, then fine of course.
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  #11  
Old 10-01-2013, 12:38 PM
pitner pitner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruppster View Post
Interesting thread...to me improvising is just the ability to play what you hear in your head without thinking about the theory behind it. I think it's the ultimate in musical expression.

To arrive at that point takes a combination of theory, practice and beg-borrowing-stealing to find your own voice.

It's very much like learning to talk; start babbling phrases as an infant, pick up words and expressions from those around you, fine tune it with a formal education, then make it your own as you mature.

After that comes the hard part: having something interesting to say. We've all sat through (and played) over indulgent solos much the same as we've heard long, boring, over indulgent speakers. The trick is to make it memorable and unique.
Well said. I am weak in theory but strong in playing what I hear. I think the theory would help me play the things I hear but can't play so it is a mix of the two in the end that makes a player really exceptional. There are tons of exceptions to that statement, Glen Campbell being one.
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:39 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Go ahead and improvise...if you're going to get any good at that you're eventually going to need all the other stuff anyway. There's no black hole there...
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  #13  
Old 10-01-2013, 12:57 PM
Ruppster Ruppster is offline
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I agree, nothing wrong with synthesizing other voices into your own. Listen to Eddie Van Halen and you can hear Allen Holdsworth. Van Halen will even tell you what an influence he was. Keith Richards, Clapton and other British rockers "stole" lots of blues licks. I love using JT's hammer-ons in my acoustic stuff.

Not much different than incorporating cool phrases into your vocabulary.
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Old 10-01-2013, 01:14 PM
jseth jseth is offline
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This really is not rocket science we're talking about here...

If you sit down with your guitar (without a chart or sheet music or tab) and just PLAY ANYTHING... you are improvising... try it some time: just sit down with your guitar in your hands/lap, and relax a bit, take a few deep breaths, put your fingers on the guitar and let them begin to play whatever comes... Do your best to NOT think too much about what you're doing...

And YOU ARE IMPROVISING!

Even if you are playing a "blues scale" or some sort in the key of E... just thump the low E string and play a few intervals against that sound... as you get more adept and comfortable within that scale/format/pattern, begin to s t r e t c h your "lines", the notes you string together... try to "hear" notes or phrases inside of your head, and translate that to what you're playing... singing along with those notes/lines is a wonderful way to learn to hear what's inside of you...

The more you do it, the better you'll get at it! A great way to get started is to use a familiar scale or pattern and then just mess around with it! Try to widen the intervals that you play, skipping notes within the scale instead of playing adjacent notes... as you get more fluent with that scale/key, switch to a different key and try it there.

As with everything, there are varying degrees of improvising, and there are those who are MASTERS at it... and there are those who are constantly regurgitating "licks" or phrases that are pre-learned and pre-planned... those types of players tend to sound bland and banal to my ears, but, to each his own!

Above all else, HAVE FUN WITH THIS! They call it "playing" the guitar for good reason...
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Old 10-01-2013, 01:22 PM
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The sooner you start doing it, the sooner you will get good at it.
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