Hi, and Hedges

[benmca]

Hi All - I'm new here.

I've been playing for 30 years (jeez) , lifetime FAN of fingerstyle, but only started geeking out hard on Hedges, Bensusan, Fahey, Gulezian etc over the past 10 years. I would love to trade notes/war stories with players who are studying the same pieces I am. Has anyone here tackled any of Hedges' stuff on Breakfast in the Fields and Aerial Boundaries? Studying these pieces have been the most rewarding, meditative time I've spent playing guitar - very challenging for my brain and body.

I've been working through Hedges + Stropes book (http://www.stropes.com/index.php?glb...a=7&bkid=1 ) and individual transcriptions, and can make it through Bensusan, Ragamuffin (one of my life goals), The Happy Couple, most of Aerial Boundaries and Rickover's Dream (not there yet on these two).

I'm looking at Layover now and am having trouble developing strength in some of the overlapping hammer-ons at 1:00-1:30 here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHjotFyWs3s


More on me here:

http://listenfaster.com

http://listenfastermusic.bandcamp.com

Thanks and hope to talk to you soon!
ben

[rick-slo]

Ben, I learned and recorded Hedges' "Layover". More recently I put the recording on youtube here.
Starting at 1:12 was where I had to hit the hammers with a little more oomph for the notes to come through.




or here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqRfgHJd3pY

[Gitfiddlemann]

I would love to trade notes/war stories with players who are studying the same pieces I am.

Hi Ben,
Looks like you & I are soul mates of sorts in this regard. Nice to know I'm not alone!

Has anyone here tackled any of Hedges' stuff on Breakfast in the Fields and Aerial Boundaries?

Yes, I learned quite a few of them some years ago and currently have two of them up ("Happy Couple" and "Two Days Old" on my youTube channel (see link below). I did have Ragamuffin on there for a while too, and although it wasn't bad I was never really happy with it so I took it down. I'm back on Ragamuffin now as a matter of fact and think I've worked out the kinks. I plan on re-recording it soon.

Studying these pieces have been the most rewarding, meditative time I've spent playing guitar - very challenging for my brain and body.

Totally agree. I can't sum it up any better than you did.

I'm looking at Layover now and am having trouble developing strength in some of the overlapping hammer-ons at 1:00-1:30 here:

The key here (if you have the Stropes transcription) is executing what he calls "the flying rest-stroke", which is how he describes the technique that Hedges is implementing in that passage. In the clip you showed, Michael is doing it slowly, so the whole effect isn't as dramatic. But the idea is to exaggerate the stroke by (as Stropes describes it) rotating the the wrist up and raising the thumb up a few more inches than normal (which can be clearly seen on the video) and then accelerating/slapping it down to execute the rest stroke.
Additionally, as in all Hedges pieces, it's super important to 1) silence any notes that would be over ringing when playing the thumb stroke and muddling up the line, and 2) make sure that the entire movement is done very rhythmically. The timing has to be spot on. That's easier said than done, because the thumb is about 3 or 4 inches higher than normal, and accelerating downwards.
So I would say, if you practice it slowly (like the video), and follow Stropes' instructions, and transcription, to the letter, things will soon start to gel for you.
Note: I'm not claiming to be any better than you at this! Far from it. I'm on the same bus you are. Like you said before, playing this music challenges both the brain and body. You have to be mindful and meticulous, but as you know, it's plenty rewarding to make the extra effort in all these pieces. Hedges was a true genius, and a great showman, but he wasn't trying to be flashy in his compositions. Every trick or technique he applied was in the pursuit of a musical goal. That's a big difference between him and the popular "playing gods" of today, a lot of whom are missing the point (imo).

Ben, I learned and recorded Hedges' "Layover". More recently I put the recording on youtube here.

Rick, terrific rendition of Layover and really good playing. Enjoyed it a lot.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Hi Ben,
I’m sitting here with a guitar and Layover on the music stand, going over that particular passage. I thought the following additional info might be helpful to you:
Specifically, measures 14 and 15 are where the flying or exaggerated rest strokes, which repeat throughout the piece, occur first.
The RH fingering is important i.e. sticking to the pattern of the thumb “p” playing strings 5 and 4, i on 3 and m on 2.
The thumb’s motion upwards takes place right after the hammer-ons on the 2nd, 7th and 9th frets i.e. after the slurred notes are sounded, the thumb has to accelerate down for the stroke.
Since things are happening fast, and the thumb stroke needs to be super accurate, I find it helps to keep the ring finger (and even the pinky) of the RH anchored on the top E string for those 2 measures. That anchor creates a resting point for the hand from which the wrist and thumb can move upward and down more securely, or accurately.
In addition, the ring finger in that anchor spot mutes any sound coming from the top E string, which is not supposed to ring until measure 16.
So, it’s a double help of sorts.
If you work on that slowly, and get the RH fingers to memorize that pattern, I think you’ll find that you can really speed it up without causing any unwanted motion from the right hand which could negatively impact both accuracy and timing.
Anyway, I don’t want to get overly analytical about it, but thought I would just pass on these few hints as to how you might want to approach that spot if you’re still struggling with it.
Good luck!

[benmca]

[QUOTE=rick-slo;4725541]Ben, I learned and recorded Hedges' "Layover". More recently I put the recording on youtube here.
Starting at 1:12 was where I had to hit the hammers with a little more oomph for the notes to come through.



Beautiful Job Rick - thanks for sharing that!

AndreF - nice to meetcha! Thanks for all the tips.

Additionally, as in all Hedges pieces, it's super important to 1) silence any notes that would be over ringing when playing the thumb stroke and muddling up the line, and 2) make sure that the entire movement is done very rhythmically. The timing has to be spot on. That's easier said than done, because the thumb is about 3 or 4 inches higher than normal, and accelerating downwards.

Amen - muting is key. I will play around with the floating rest stroke.

It's funny: you know how sometimes just talking through a problem helps you address it? One thing I discovered right after writing my original post is that I get more leverage on my hammers in this piece so long as the LH fingers fretting notes are fretting those notes on the tip of the LH finger. In this section we're talking about at 1:00 in the slow video, if I'm not fretting these notes on the very tips of my LH fingers I lose a lot of leverage. Make sense? Maybe it's just me. Also - playing with my wrist angle on in this passage helped. I didn't discover that until I made a little video of myself and watched it - something I never do. I should probably join the crowd and post some youtube vid of me playing solo to get some feedback.

The thumb’s motion upwards takes place right after the hammer-ons on the 2nd, 7th and 9th frets i.e. after the slurred notes are sounded, the thumb has to accelerate down for the stroke.
Since things are happening fast, and the thumb stroke needs to be super accurate, I find it helps to keep the ring finger (and even the pinky) of the RH anchored on the top E string for those 2 measures. That anchor creates a resting point for the hand from which the wrist and thumb can move upward and down more securely, or accurately.
In addition, the ring finger in that anchor spot mutes any sound coming from the top E string, which is not supposed to ring until measure 16.
So, it’s a double help of sorts.

Good points - I'm playing things this way but it's taking it's time in gelling.

I wonder if you have any thoughts on the muting in bar 26. The thumb mutes the 2 lowest strings on the and of 3 - I have been tucking my thumb between the 5th and 6th strings, in order to prep for the 5th string harmonic on the 4. This passage is kicking my butt as well

Thanks again for the advice - b

[Gitfiddlemann]

AndreF - nice to meetcha! Thanks for all the tips.

Likewise! and looking forward to exchanging mutually beneficial info!

It's funny: you know how sometimes just talking through a problem helps you address it? One thing I discovered right after writing my original post is that I get more leverage on my hammers in this piece so long as the LH fingers fretting notes are fretting those notes on the tip of the LH finger. In this section we're talking about at 1:00 in the slow video, if I'm not fretting these notes on the very tips of my LH fingers I lose a lot of leverage. Make sense? Maybe it's just me.

Makes sense to me. That’s what I always try to do anyway, i.e. aim for the tip with bent knuckle for maximum strength, and accuracy.

Also - playing with my wrist angle on in this passage helped. I didn't discover that until I made a little video of myself and watched it - something I never do. I should probably join the crowd and post some youtube vid of me playing solo to get some feedback.

Yes, that would be advantageous. It's an excellent way to generate feedback from others, but probably best as a way to conduct your own self-evaluation. Whenever I do a video I always notice things that I’m not aware I’m doing and need to be more mindful of. Bad habits creeping back in. I will sometimes use a mirror to self-correct, but a video recording is more telling because it brings in more nerves into play.

I wonder if you have any thoughts on the muting in bar 26. The thumb mutes the 2 lowest strings on the and of 3 - I have been tucking my thumb between the 5th and 6th strings, in order to prep for the 5th string harmonic on the 4. This passage is kicking my butt as well

That measure is a bear for sure. To be honest, to play it exactly as written is only possible (imo) if you have super flexible joints in your fretting fingers, e.g. the kind that allow you to partial barre strings while leaving others open. Hedges had that hyper flexibility in his fingers, and he made ample use of it in compositions. Take the 2nd beat of that measure for example: Once you hammer-on strings 5, 4 and 3, the top 2 need to keep ringing (2nd string only briefly). Fortunately, the top string is the melody and that’s the easiest to maintain, so I focus on that one, even though I’m probably muting the 2nd string too early as I do the hammer-on. On beat 4, the 4th string is ringing as you try to negotiate the two 7th fret harmonics on 5 and 3 and the 12th fret melody notes on 2. That’s a nasty move right there. I’m happy to get one of the harmonics in, but my focus is on the melody notes, to keep that delicate staccato like melody going from the first note of measure 26 through 32. Also, making sure that the driving, percussive rhythm (from the hammer-ons and open notes) comes through to support it with all its motion and tenseness. That whole section, and maybe even the whole tune, sounds like that to me. Like someone who’s on the verge of panic and just barely able to keep it together. :-)
To summarize, I try to get as much of it as possible correctly, but even if it’s not spot on because of my limitations I find I can get away with it in that section if the proper rhythmic feel and melody are there.
That’s why I liked Rick’s version a lot. I don’t know that he got all of it as written either, but it didn’t matter because he nailed the essential parts.
Ben, great to have you around the forum and looking forward to more of these discussions in the future!