TWO Simon Fay Model One guitars build thread...video pages 13-15.

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by Simon Fay

Regarding the back bracing, I first saw the "floating" brace on a Traugott a couple years back. I have been trying a number of things to add strength to the back so that it would strongly resist flattening caused by a rotating headblock (the forces that result in the need for a neck reset). Some folks also use x-braces on the back to achieve a similar effect. Others use carbon fiber buttressing of the headblock to the waist region -- this is probably the most stable structure but I strongly dislike the way this looks and the interior aesthetic is very important to me, especially now that soundports are so common. The floating brace was more in-line with what I wanted to do but there is no one "right way" to approach bracing. My take has been to leave the centerstrip (the long Ebony brace at the center) whole and uncut. I then have the ladder braces notched to go over the centerstrip and then add a floating brace on top. I then cap the ladder braces to regain the original strength in the same way the x-brace is capped. This results in a very stable structure but I also spend significantly more time in order to build this way. In the end, it is hard to say whether these efforts are worth it or not. My gut instinct is that the resulting structure is much stronger than a traditionally braced guitar and my hope is that this will have a profound effect on resisting deformation from string tension - resulting in a much more stable neck angle over time.

Tonally, I certainly haven't noticed any detriments to the tone but it is hard to tell whether any tonal benefits can be attributed specifically to these changes.

Thanks very much, Simon. Very informative and much appreciated. This approach could possibly save you a lot of time on repairs and warranty work in the future, and a lot of grief as well. But I guess you won't know for some time. I never would have thought that the floating brace was engineered for that specific purpose. Good luck with it.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

Larry,

Will they all be largely different (tonally) from one another to fill separate needs, or will they all be voiced in a semi-similar fashion with slightly different nuances to the tone. What's your game plan?

Bill

Thanks for this pertinent and insightful question, Bill.

I am not a "different guitars w/different tonalities" guy. Never have been. Don't want vastly different sounds via vastly different woods. As with a classical guitarist, I play what I play, and I try to bring the best out of whatever guitar is in my hands...and hopefully a darned-fine guitar is residing there at all times!

That said, I am absolutely a Rosewood-guy...I know that the new Braz. and Coco. guitars (both w/German Spr. tops) will certainly be different from one another...and the two Coco. guitars (new, German, and 2011, Sitka) will be different, as well. I *am* hoping for semi-similar for all three, but the German Spruce will likely throw a wrinkle in that idea.

My game plan is simply to play the heck out of the guitars. If I am fortunate enough to get some overseas gigs the Braz. would obviously stay home...but I won't be shy with either of the new-guitars in terms of getting them out of the house and on-tour with me, wherever and whenever.

The two new guitars have very-slight changes to fingerboard-width (at nut and 12th fret), but otherwise the main ergonomic differences will be the new body-design. I may want to hang onto all three, and I may also let-go of the 2011 guitar, since I *do* have a classical on-order, and I am dreaming of a 12-string...but I don't have unlimited funds. The 2011 Fay has indeed been my "dream guitar" from the day it arrived, and there are plenty of reasons to hang onto it, of course.

It's going to be an embarrassment-of-riches w/the three Fay guitars, and if I can swing keeping them all, well, that would be my first-choice!

[mesa]

Beautiful work, Simon. Is this going to be a 12 fret?

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by mesa

Beautiful work, Simon. Is this going to be a 12 fret?

They will both be 13-fret guitars...24" scale.

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

Thanks for this pertinent and insightful question, Bill.

I am not a "different guitars w/different tonalities" guy. Never have been. Don't want vastly different sounds via vastly different woods. As with a classical guitarist, I play what I play, and I try to bring the best out of whatever guitar is in my hands...and hopefully a darned-fine guitar is residing there at all times!

That said, I am absolutely a Rosewood-guy...I know that the new Braz. and Coco. guitars (both w/German Spr. tops) will certainly be different from one another...and the two Coco. guitars (new, German, and 2011, Sitka) will be different, as well. I *am* hoping for semi-similar for all three, but the German Spruce will likely throw a wrinkle in that idea.

My game plan is simply to play the heck out of the guitars. If I am fortunate enough to get some overseas gigs the Braz. would obviously stay home...but I won't be shy with either of the new-guitars in terms of getting them out of the house and on-tour with me, wherever and whenever.

The two new guitars have very-slight changes to fingerboard-width (at nut and 12th fret), but otherwise the main ergonomic differences will be the new body-design. I may want to hang onto all three, and I may also let-go of the 2011 guitar, since I *do* have a classical on-order, and I am dreaming of a 12-string...but I don't have unlimited funds. The 2011 Fay has indeed been my "dream guitar" from the day it arrived, and there are plenty of reasons to hang onto it, of course.

It's going to be an embarrassment-of-riches w/the three Fay guitars, and if I can swing keeping them all, well, that would be my first-choice!

Thanks for the informative answer. I'm always interested in what folks use their guitars for. I realize you play around the globe, and play modern fingerstyle, so I figured you wouldn't be a "different guitars w/different tonalities" guy. I, on the other hand, play strictly at home and need guitars to cover everything from blues/ragtime to flatpicking to modern fingerstyle (not that I'm very accomplished, but I do play hrs/day. its my main hobby in my retirement.). I'm so glad to see you are able to resume your career and afford a few wonderful instruments. Simon gets a lot of good publicity from you. Best of luck with the new instruments and resuming your career. I love watching your videos and get many new ideas from you as I try to learn more and more about fingerstyle.

[Larry Pattis]

FYI, Bill, I do also occasionally trot out a bottleneck-slide piece in concert, and I expect any instrument to be able to handle a variety of approaches/styles...it's up to my right & left hands (and in conjunction w/my ears/brain feedback loop) to get what I need out of the instrument in-hand.

This is not a put-down on having multiple-instruments for multiple purposes...certainly a National steel-guitar would serve me pretty-well on the slide pieces...but then I'd be traveling with more instruments than I want to lug around...so I make do.

I want a 12-string guitar, now, too.

[Jeremy]

Congrats on your improved health and the new guitars! Good times ahead!

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

FYI, Bill, I do also occasionally trot out a bottleneck-slide piece in concert, and I expect any instrument to be able to handle a variety of approaches/styles...it's up to my right & left hands (and in conjunction w/my ears/brain feedback loop) to get what I need out of the instrument in-hand.

This is not a put-down on having multiple-instruments for multiple purposes...certainly a National steel-guitar would serve me pretty-well on the slide pieces...but then I'd be traveling with more instruments than I want to lug around...so I make do.

I want a 12-string guitar, now, too.

Would you be playing the same fingerstyle on the 12 string as you normally do? That would be impressive!

[s2y]

Originally Posted by Simon Fay

s2y,
To my knowledge the cutaway bracing is unique. The typical approach is a straight brace that runs right into the side of the cutaway. I don't like to skimp on structure with the upper bout and this was my solution. The standard approach does work well tho' but for me this is a bit of added insurance.

Regarding the back bracing, I first saw the "floating" brace on a Traugott a couple years back. I have been trying a number of things to add strength to the back so that it would strongly resist flattening caused by a rotating headblock (the forces that result in the need for a neck reset). Some folks also use x-braces on the back to achieve a similar effect. Others use carbon fiber buttressing of the headblock to the waist region -- this is probably the most stable structure but I strongly dislike the way this looks and the interior aesthetic is very important to me, especially now that soundports are so common. The floating brace was more in-line with what I wanted to do but there is no one "right way" to approach bracing. My take has been to leave the centerstrip (the long Ebony brace at the center) whole and uncut. I then have the ladder braces notched to go over the centerstrip and then add a floating brace on top. I then cap the ladder braces to regain the original strength in the same way the x-brace is capped. This results in a very stable structure but I also spend significantly more time in order to build this way. In the end, it is hard to say whether these efforts are worth it or not. My gut instinct is that the resulting structure is much stronger than a traditionally braced guitar and my hope is that this will have a profound effect on resisting deformation from string tension - resulting in a much more stable neck angle over time.

Tonally, I certainly haven't noticed any detriments to the tone but it is hard to tell whether any tonal benefits can be attributed specifically to these changes.

Makes sense. I don't think I have ever seen anyone do that. I suppose we'll know how well it works in 50 years or so?

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

Would you be playing the same fingerstyle on the 12 string as you normally do? That would be impressive!

Well, I would likely start in DADGAD and attempt repertoire pieces...but I could also consider a number of other approaches, including new, 12-string specific compositions (and not limited to DADGAD)...and it would have to be my "standard" 24" scale.

[StevenL]

Nothing to contribute to the thread really. Just wanted to express my appreciation for the art of the builder and the musician here. Some of the cream of the crop of the Almighty's creations to be admired. That wordwork is beautiful, clean...even the braces are sculpted. Stuff to be extremely proud of, to be sure. Thanks!

[Marc Durso]

Simon: Thanks so much for the link to Gore Guitars. I spent an hour reading his very interesting design perspectives.

[nashmore]

Need - more - build pics!!!

[ZekeM]

Originally Posted by Marc Durso

Simon: Thanks so much for the link to Gore Guitars. I spent an hour reading his very interesting design perspectives.

Trevor has a couple books available too. A little pricey but if u are into that sort of thing, worth the money

[Luca Canteri]

Fantastic clean work, really loving this build. Those back braces are so beautiful.