#16
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this was your exact quote... "If you can strum a guitar and lay down a scratch vocal your performance WILL have a much more intimate feel than anything recorded to a rigid rhythm generated from a drum machine" That's the myth! Is that the case in your situation? Maybe, and if that works for you, great, but a person that knows how to work with a click track can get just as intimate of a performance with or without. If your MO is to not use a click track, well then, that's how you work, and more power to you. But advising others they will get a much more intimate feel from not using one, well that is a point of view not shared by me personally, and MOST (not all) professional producers. And having the click there provides a reference for all subsequent tracks. So that's why I expressed my counter-point. The particular statement that you just posted about the knitting that is where snarkiness started, and in my opinion, is more that a bit off base, as if a response to you having your opinion countered. I have made my sole income from playing and recording music for the last 15 years and I can say without a doubt that having in a click in studio scenarios has saved more time, and produced more positive results that I can count. And your other statement... "As far as a polished over-all performance, I have observed a LOT of live music over my years and I really can't recall any case where the performer needed a click track in their ear to present a good performance." that has nothing to do with the OP's original desire to learn how to multi-track an instrumental performance. Last edited by rockabilly69; 08-15-2016 at 02:03 PM. |
#17
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I'll site your rebuttal (highlighted above) as a typical example of misinterpretation. You feel the need to quote that line and then choose to ignore the line that follows: "The bottom line is try both methods and make the determination for yourself. YMMV." That's common internet vernacular that means basically the same thing as "In my opinion...". I'd say that the responses here highlight the line from The Boxer, "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest". I'm offering MY OPINION only to the OP and it's worth the same as all the other self-professed experts that contribute to public forums. |
#18
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NO I didn't disregard the REST, I countered the statement/opinion of yours that used the absolute "Will". My purpose in the rebuttal was to have the OP consider both opinions, so that he wasn't overly biased by your first statement, which whether you intended or not, somewhat nullified your second with your YMMV. And I it did it with a clear explanation and NO snarkiness! It's obvious that we were both trying to help the OP but have different approaches. But, I can't tell you how many times I've had people walk into my studio not willing to even try to use a click because statements they read on the internet about stiffness, un-natural feel, etc. That's why I posted up my opinion. And many of those people that were worried about using a click came to realize later, after working with me, that it was way more helpful than they thought! And as a bonus they got to feel how their songs felt by being aware of the tempo and by being able to slow it up and down with just a click, pardon the pun. Last edited by rockabilly69; 08-15-2016 at 02:25 PM. |
#19
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__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 Last edited by KevWind; 08-15-2016 at 02:45 PM. |
#20
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#21
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Nope my bad. I missed that there were two different posts that have sparked reactions (well three now) so disregard the MIA. but the point of the previous sentence still stands as accurate . As does the rest of that post and my previous one. YMMV
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 |
#22
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That.
And if you're not used to playing with a click track, it's probably going to take some getting used to. The first few times I tried, I thought I'd never be able to do it but now it's second nature. Just gotta stick with it until it becomes comfortable. Quote:
That's true. It's also true that in most cases you're only hearing that particular performance one time so you're not likely to pick up on inadvertent changes in tempo.
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Jim 2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi 2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood 2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar 2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce 2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce 1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos. YouTube Last edited by jim1960; 08-15-2016 at 06:52 PM. |
#23
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Live playing is different that a recording. In a live setting if someone misses a beat he can usually cover it up and catch up in a measure or two and maybe no one will notice. The problem is the rest of the band has to compensate for it and also catch up. This sounds fine live BUT:
In a recording situation, the tape don't lie, it plays back exactly was put in. If one guy misses a beat all of a sudden the whole band is out of time. If everybody is using the click track as a guide, more often than not, everybody will be playing in sync.
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Alvarez 66 CE Alvarez AJ80CE Takamine F340 Guild F-2512 Deluxe CE Ibanez Acoustic Bass 12 M1 Martin 12 string X Series Harley Benton Telecaster EVH Wolfgang Formerly known as Martin Maniac..... M |
#24
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The subtle shifts in timing / tempo are indeed part of what I was referring to when I made the inference that "timing irregularity" was IMHO preferable to regimented step time in recorded music. (Please don't interpret this as being derogatory toward your comments...) I've heard about as much regimented rhythm / auto-tuned studio production as I can stand. I've actually been on the receiving end of working in a studio where the tracks were quantized until they had the life choked out of them. It really opened my eyes to the difference between performance and engineering; I prefer the former, it's what music is all about IMHO. I don't mind tracks that ebb and flow with energy and display the human factor in music. All this is just my opinion, and obviously it ruffles a lot of feathers. I also did some session work at Pogo Studios with Mark Ruble (now of Blackbird Studios) and really learned a lot in the short time working with him. Mark loves to do recording with as much of a live feel as possible, and I totally dug his vibe. (Oh, There was no click track to be found in any of the session work I did there...) My intent was to offer an alternative that I thought as superior to me, but obviously there's no room for an alternative viewpoint here unless you word your responses very carefully so they can't be used against you. I understand this at the "Gearsluts" forum, but I was a bit surprised at the reaction it garnered here. |
#25
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If you're talking about someone just randomly making tempo shifts ...for example, starting a song at 90 bpm, shifting up to 94 bpm, then slowing to 92 bpm... I've never heard anyone else call that desirable and I've never come across anyone seeking to do that deliberately. But it's a big world and there's room for everyone.
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Jim 2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi 2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood 2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar 2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce 2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce 1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos. YouTube |
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One of the guys I play out with has "timing irregularities", he's horrible, the rest of the band has to compensate to keep up with him. He's nice guy, I like him, but I would never want to work with him in the studio. We tolerate it because he owns the P.A. system.
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Alvarez 66 CE Alvarez AJ80CE Takamine F340 Guild F-2512 Deluxe CE Ibanez Acoustic Bass 12 M1 Martin 12 string X Series Harley Benton Telecaster EVH Wolfgang Formerly known as Martin Maniac..... M |
#27
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"The subtle shifts in timing / tempo are indeed part of what I was referring to..."
I don't consider any shift in tempo that's obviously discernable as "subtle", but evidently that's a hard concept to get across. sub·tle: (adjective, especially of a change or distinction) so delicate or precise as to be difficult to analyze or describe. |
#28
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Some good advice here. Lay down your rhythm guitar part and start layering from there. Regarding click tracks - many musicians are uncomfortable with a click track. To those musicians I say, get off your lazy butt and practice. If you can't play to a click, without it sounding "stiff and unnatural", then you have no business calling yourself a musician. If you choose not to use a click, that's cool, but if you CAN'T play to one, then you need to spend a couple months with a metronome. My band never records or performs with a click, but we practice to a click quite often. But we don't multitrack our parts either. If se did, maybe a click would be a good idea. |
#29
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So with that in mind how bout we start over ? First: Yes indeed playing to scratch track as opposed to click is a completely valid method. But then so is playing to click. Neither one is "inherently" superior to the other, (except for in the realm of personal preference). Implying that one process is somehow intrinsically a superior method to the other is fallacy , and that does indeed go both ways does it not? Fact : A human plying an instrument or singing to a click will also and absolutely have subtle timing shifts in the performance, because unlike a digital click or drum machine, a sample accurate human does in fact not exist. Fact : Quantization and auto tune are entirely different processes and subjects than playing to a click and have no inclusive relationship. Even so most prominent modern DAWs have quantization algorithms that include percentage and randomization options that result in subtle timing variations that do not consistently fall directly on the grid. Fact: A click , a quantization algorithm , or pitch correction program , ect. are simply tools. If they are misused or over used, that is a human failing not a failure inherent of the tool and no different than EQ, Compression or Reverb. So while I would completely agree a performance with the "life choked out of it" does happen and is not desirable. But lets not forget that is happening because of the specific human decisions being made, not because of any actual causal relationship with the tools being used .
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 Last edited by KevWind; 08-16-2016 at 08:39 AM. |
#30
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I don't think there's anything I offered that conflicts with any of what you stated here. |