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Old 08-28-2018, 10:24 AM
DaveKell DaveKell is offline
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Default Mental Release When Soloing

I'm going to try my best to explain this. I posted quite awhile back about Toby Walker's Take a Solo dvd and how it opened up some freedom for me as I began to branch out into improvising. I've also mentioned a number of times the 83 year old guy who plays the only electric at my weekly jam and how he seems to have internalized every note on a guitar neck. He effortlessly improvises spot on solos for songs he's never heard before, many times surpassing the original when somebody does a cover song.

I've watched a number of videos of people soloing as well. One thing I constantly observe is the total freedom they approach it with. I'm making an effort to chuck all the scale practice and tab learning and just go for it for once in my life. I'm spending hours with backing tracks and repeating them over and over to find notes that work in many different keys. It's actually working out better than I anticipated. Eventually I hope to just play from my heart and let whatever comes out happen. I also see this as the only way to finally develop an individual style. At some point the teacher has to be abandoned and you have to stand on your own.

Any thoughts on how you adept soloists went about this?
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Old 08-28-2018, 10:29 AM
muscmp muscmp is offline
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i wouldn't restrict it to soloing but to playing guitar generally. i know when i was in a band and performing that just before we went on i was fairly nervous. but, when i struck the first chord or note, i went into concentration mode and didn't come out until the last note/chord/drum hit was struck.

it just takes familiarity with the song and the guitar itself.

play music!
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Old 08-28-2018, 11:33 AM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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I have the "best guitar instructor in the world".
He told me the secret to soloing is to become so familiar with the scales that you know longer think about them as you play. Once you can competently play the Major and Minor Pentatonic as well as the Blues, Dorian and Mixolydian, in all positions, it becomes a matter of composition. Learning notes that work in various keys incorporates theory and my guy is teaching me that as well.
Composition is a lot of things in soloing. My instructor is walking me through all kinds of techniques guitarists use to compose riffs. Most of it is like building something out of various components single notes, slides, bends, double stops vibrato and all that stuff. The combined with timing, variations in speed, repetition, you can go crazy and have fun.
I'm still working on the scales, but I already have made great strides with my solos by combining the knowledge and skill I have acquired.
Most guys who can solo already know all this. They don't think about how they get there, they just go.

BTW...Your story sounds so familiar to me. You still should continue to practice your scales though and some theory from a good instructor will get you rolling faster than doing it on your own. JMO.
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Old 08-28-2018, 11:37 AM
DanleyJ DanleyJ is offline
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Repetition!!! This is the key to familiarizing yourself with the neck of your guitar. I spent about 3 years recently where I never learned a new song but I constantly worked on simple chord progressions like a I, IV, V in any and all keys. Rather than using scales, I used note patterns based on scales (ie, not using every note in the scale) and studied the CAGED system (GOOGLE it for details). This system made more sense to me than playing scales. I started getting more comfortable with soloing this way. That 83 year old guy has had lots of time to get comfy with his guitar neck and I'll bet he really put in the work to get there when he was younger.
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:37 PM
RedJoker RedJoker is offline
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I SOOO wish I could improvise. I go to a local jam once a month and I softly work on improvising over the song that someone else is leading. I'm the guy hunched over in the corner trying to hear his guitar while playing soft enough so as not to disturb others. Sometimes it works, most times it doesn't.

Then when it comes to my turn to play a song, it's back to three chords and a cloud of dust.
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Old 08-28-2018, 02:26 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
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I think you've already heard a few good tips. Here's a few more:

1. There are two popular approaches to learning how to solo - applying scale patterns and applying arpeggio patterns. Learn BOTH of them. One or the other will only get you so far. Your initial goal is to seamlessly switch between these approaches. Sometimes scalar patterns work better, sometime arpeggios are best, and sometimes you have to mix and match. I've observed most guitarists start with scales, then move on to arpeggios (probably easier that way). Just don't stop until you have them both down cold.

2. At an intermediate or advanced level, you want at least some of your solos to resemble melodies, so you will need to break out of the heretofore useful and benevolent trap of scales + arpeggios. If you sing, bonus. If not, attempt anyway (esp practicing alone). Melody is often defined by its phrasing, and this phrasing aspect is easier to realize when you can sing along with what you are playing. Quickly you will experience solos that 'sing' or flow, and those that resemble a coughing fit (out of control and unpleasant). Realize that it is OK to repeat a note or phrase, and silence or a long held note does not have to mean you failed.

3. The 83 year old you mention has attained something that I'm only recently experiencing after 40+ years of improvisation - fretboard mastery. I find myself looking at the fretboard less and less, yet I can play rapid and intricate lines because I VISUALIZE it in my mind. I attribute it largely to doing steps 1 and 2 for so many years that it finally is becoming natural.

Realize also that there are many paths to improv, and soloing is only one. If you play with others, have them play the chords, and see if you can come up with a compatible accompaniment on the spot. Bonus points if it helps to strengthen the rhythm. Major bonus points if it is compatible with the melody! (This approach really tests your knowledge of the harmonic and melodic aspects of a song, and is REALLY hard to do at first.)

Finally, get ready for YEARS of making 'mistakes' and failing over and over. Even more than general guitar playing, improv REQUIRES you to accept that you are likely to screw up - at ANY level. I happen to think it is worth it, as improv is a skill that a minority have attained.
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Old 08-28-2018, 02:52 PM
tippy5 tippy5 is offline
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The mental release can be deceiving. That 83 yr old fretboard wizz might actually be concentrating, focusing. (Without seeing what you are conveying it's a little hard).

He might have a huge vocabulary like some players that are beyond the usual boxes, on top of the chord, licks?
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBTR...&start_radio=1 ).

Or he might be playing outside scales and landing on the 5? Which I like to try at home, not in a band that is depending on a gig level solo.

Tim Pierce is on a thousand billboard records. His theory is very interesting on 3 ways to solo over most pop music. I switched to major soloing in my bands 20 years ago when I could to give a happier contrast to the other guitarist in the band playing pentatonic blues. And partial chords are a lot of fun to cook with.

https://youtu.be/Dqbdn_bTIf0?t=17m11s

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Old 08-28-2018, 03:27 PM
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Start with the patterns to get technically proficient - basically the patterns going across the strings. Develop a good ear to know what steps and half-steps sound like, and where they occur in the scale you are playing.

For playing a good melody break out of those patterns by developing a good ear for when to use accidental notes (e.g. substituting a half-step for a full step and vice versa).

However a lot of stuff (even that seeming on the fly) has many combinations of note groups that have been memorized to some degree from past playing, especially among the shredders where the playing is more reactive than proactively thought about.
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Old 08-28-2018, 04:11 PM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedJoker View Post
I SOOO wish I could improvise. I go to a local jam once a month and I softly work on improvising over the song that someone else is leading. I'm the guy hunched over in the corner trying to hear his guitar while playing soft enough so as not to disturb others. Sometimes it works, most times it doesn't.

Then when it comes to my turn to play a song, it's back to three chords and a cloud of dust.
If you read what Gordon Currie had to say, there is a lot of good and insightful stuff to be gleaned. I cannot overemphasize the need to know scales, but what he says about arpeggios and melodies is also good stuff. Easy solos can be built off arpeggios and soloing over a chord is actually easier than you think once the light bulb goes on. Solos are melodic just as singing is. If you think in terms of that while trying to play a fill or a riff, it's extremely helpful. I feel your trepidation is based on lack of confidence as much as knowledge and skill. Try not to be intimidated. Have you ever asked anyone in your jam group for help?
Man, if I had an hour with you, I bet I could get you doing some soloing.
Nothin' fancy or complicated, but it would sound good.
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Old 08-28-2018, 04:34 PM
Pitar Pitar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKell View Post
I'm going to try my best to explain this. I posted quite awhile back about Toby Walker's Take a Solo dvd and how it opened up some freedom for me as I began to branch out into improvising. I've also mentioned a number of times the 83 year old guy who plays the only electric at my weekly jam and how he seems to have internalized every note on a guitar neck. He effortlessly improvises spot on solos for songs he's never heard before, many times surpassing the original when somebody does a cover song.

I've watched a number of videos of people soloing as well. One thing I constantly observe is the total freedom they approach it with. I'm making an effort to chuck all the scale practice and tab learning and just go for it for once in my life. I'm spending hours with backing tracks and repeating them over and over to find notes that work in many different keys. It's actually working out better than I anticipated. Eventually I hope to just play from my heart and let whatever comes out happen. I also see this as the only way to finally develop an individual style. At some point the teacher has to be abandoned and you have to stand on your own.

Any thoughts on how you adept soloists went about this?
You've reached a point where you're becoming the music. Welcome aboard. I've mentioned the ear training on this forum before as the single most important aspect of learning. Scores, tabs and other aids are tertiary to that. The ear will guide the hands. Once a person is intimately acquainted with the fretboard by ear, and has the motor skills easily subordinate to it, all published music progressions, rhythms and solos can be sorted out and played wholly on the inner ear alone and often from memory. This is the musical freedom that awakens a person's ability to develop influences into his or her own recognizable sound, or style as you identify it, and become the music rather than simply a player of it.
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:08 PM
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Once a person knows the major and minor pentatonic scales or patterns they have a home base or bail out place to go. Here is one trick I use at times. Make sure to hit the main chord note on the first beat of the chord changes. Whatever you play in between can be about anything from pretty to far out jazz sounding but hit those main chord notes. So if you are playing a blues in C when the song changes chords to F then be hitting an F note on the first beat of the chord change. When It move to G then be hitting that G note on the first beat of the chord. And C also.


When you play in a blues band all night long playing solos can get redundant. That's when you start trying every trick in the book of music. You play with the beat and out of the beat. Long pauses or play double time. Have fu n and keep it fresh. But the best is to go into zen mode. You can will that.
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:28 PM
roylor4 roylor4 is offline
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You will get a huge variety of opinions on how to become a good soloist. I'm no guitar wizard, nor will I profess to be.

For me, i started off with Minor Pentatonic and that's where I still live. At first, I just learned the different scale boxes and played along with songs that I knew the key of. I stayed in boxes that were applicable to the I chord and got good at knowing where to go when chord changes happened. I became fairly proficient, but my playing was one dimensional.

The next spurt of growth was changing the boxes to match the chord changes. Opened up a lot of possibilities.

Blues "walks" came next, moving 7th shaped triads and the Robert Johnson pinky walk.

Unlike Gordon, the use of arpeggios within moveable chords, triads and diads came later - probably because I have never had a guitar teacher/instructor.

Even learning something as simple as playing a "Memphis Lead" (simple but effective tool) can open a myriad of doors.

I don't think there is a single best way to learn how to play solo's and if there is, I wouldn't be an example to learn from. I do think that everyone learns differently and my best friend (playing for 35 years) often learns new things from me.

For me, the road has been:
1) Learn and practice scale boxes
2) put them into action
3) copy, learn and assimilate tricks from more experienced players (triads, diads, walks, etc.
4) learn the roots of barre chords and how to arpeggiate them in interesting ways
5) Make it my own

I'm a slow learner and this is a marathon for me, not a sprint - I'd get left in the dust
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Old 08-29-2018, 03:47 AM
Reeperbahn Reeperbahn is offline
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For me, it is a little bit like car-driving.

There will be a moment when you have some practice, when you are not worrying about clutch, pedals, the lights-switch and so on anymore - but just think "ah, I want to go to the beach", take your seat behind the wheel, and think about the nicest or fastest route on the way, and look for pretty girls on the sidewalk
When your thoughts are not on technique anymore, you will be free.

If you play enough, and challenge yourself, you will be able to think a melody and your fingers will just play it. I find it very helpful to sing or hum along to what I play. You will quickly find out if your fingers do what's in your head , and no matter if you think in CAGED, scales or chords - "hearing" a tone in your head and knowing where the tone on the fretboard is, will work with any system if you practice.

Have fun!
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Old 09-09-2018, 02:15 PM
DaveKell DaveKell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tippy5 View Post
The mental release can be deceiving. That 83 yr old fretboard wizz might actually be concentrating, focusing. (Without seeing what you are conveying it's a little hard).

[/I]
Actually, this past Friday at the jam I saw him do something that I think showed he's not overly concentrating much on his great improvised solos. Somebody came in the room just as he started one, leaned over and spoke to him. He turned his head to them and had a brief conversation, never missing a note. I told him afterwards that if he dies before me I'd like to have his guitar playing brain cells transplanted into my brain!
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Old 09-09-2018, 02:39 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKell View Post
I'm going to try my best to explain this. I posted quite awhile back about Toby Walker's Take a Solo dvd and how it opened up some freedom for me as I began to branch out into improvising. I've also mentioned a number of times the 83 year old guy who plays the only electric at my weekly jam and how he seems to have internalized every note on a guitar neck. He effortlessly improvises spot on solos for songs he's never heard before, many times surpassing the original when somebody does a cover song.

I've watched a number of videos of people soloing as well. One thing I constantly observe is the total freedom they approach it with. I'm making an effort to chuck all the scale practice and tab learning and just go for it for once in my life. I'm spending hours with backing tracks and repeating them over and over to find notes that work in many different keys. It's actually working out better than I anticipated. Eventually I hope to just play from my heart and let whatever comes out happen. I also see this as the only way to finally develop an individual style. At some point the teacher has to be abandoned and you have to stand on your own.

Any thoughts on how you adept soloists went about this?
So often the answer is LISTEN.

To learn any skill you need to find and familiarize yourself with what it is you desire to achieve. In this case (soloing/improvising) I recommend choosing a song/meldy you really like, find as many recordings/videos as possible and immerse yourself in the various individual approaches.

Hearing things applied in CONTEXT gives meaning to whatever technical studies you undertake. Without musical context you're left with mere academics. Listen, listen, listen and the music will let you know what you need to do. I listen to singers, horn players, pianists, fiddlers...whatever...to "triangulate" the music behind the notes. After that it's a lot easier.

Take a gander at this vid:

https://youtu.be/f29a1RL2ly0

P.S.

It doesn't happen all at once, but rather over time. A rough estimate would be about 15 years for real proficiency...but that can mean 15 years of fun and revelation. Relax.
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Last edited by Wyllys; 09-09-2018 at 03:30 PM.
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