FINALLY: My First Trance Audio Amulet Pickup

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by JakeStone

Thanks... I have the K&K is in my Larrivee.

I thought this would be a good chance to try something else..

Jake, I don't want to dissuade you from the Trance systems, it's just that my recommendations have led to some players to being less than satisfied with their installs, and I don't like being the cause of costing others money for less than satisfactory results. Facetiously, I say put a *K&K system in your guitar and that will be 90% as good as anything else out there--and it will be--and you'll satisfy all the other K&K users out there by doing so.

*The K&K piezo disk transducer is the basic and simple technology every other piezo-based system uses and any benefits from piezo technology that detects additional vibrations in other planes likely yields very little aural return for any extra system complexity and cost.

[JakeStone]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Jake, I don't want to dissuade you from the Trance systems, it's just that my recommendations have led to some players to being less than satisfied with their installs, and I don't like being the cause of costing others money for less than satisfactory results. Facetiously, I say put a *K&K system in your guitar and that will be 90% as good as anything else out there--and it will be--and you'll satisfy all the other K&K users out there by doing so.

*The K&K piezo disk transducer is the basic and simple technology every other piezo-based system uses and any benefits from piezo technology that detects additional vibrations in other planes likely yields very little aural return for any extra system complexity and cost.

I hear ya... Thanks for your clarification ..

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Jake, I don't want to dissuade you from the Trance systems, it's just that my recommendations have led to some players to being less than satisfied with their installs, and I don't like being the cause of costing others money for less than satisfactory results. Facetiously, I say put a *K&K system in your guitar and that will be 90% as good as anything else out there--and it will be--and you'll satisfy all the other K&K users out there by doing so. [emoji3] [emoji6]

*The K&K piezo disk transducer is the basic and simple technology every other piezo-based system uses and any benefits from piezo technology that detects additional vibrations in other planes likely yields very little aural return for any extra system complexity and cost.

I am one of the folks who was excited to try the Trance based on SpruceTop’s recommendation. The first install I did was excellent. I’m not sure I even followed all the directions on cure/clamp time. It just worked. The tone was natural and clean and it picked up all the highs and overtones that the K&K appears to be missing.

My second install was a complete bust. The pickup sounded thin and frail no matter how I installed. I tried 4 times. It was a clean bridge plate and I followed all the instructions. I assumed I had made some fatal error in the install, or it was defective. Trance sent me a new system after bench testing my preamp. The new system was a little better, but no where near as good as the first install. I sold the whole system to Cuki, who installed it about 8 times before getting the right tone.

So, I think this system can sound excellent and better than the other piezo based systems, especially the definition in the highs. However, for me, the install was hit or miss. Having it installed by a pro, who might use another method, seems like the right answer for Trance. However, now all my guitars have K&Ks and I’m using a the Zoom AC-2 pedal as a preamp. The K&K gets you about 75-85% of the quality of a Trance, but it’s dumb simple, requires no batteries, and isn’t fussy to install. However, it NEEDS EQ and/or processing. The Zoom AC-2 I am using has some subtle Aura-like imaging and EQ that adds “air” and resonance. I wouldn’t recommend the AC-2 to people who want professional top notch audiophile/studio quality. But, it works fine for me. The best piezo solution available today seems to be a combination of the passive K&K and Tonedexter. It doesn’t degrade the acoustic tone of the guitar and has the best amplified tone available today.

[JakeStone]

Thanks for your sharing your experience and perspective Dave.
It's always an "adventure" ...

Hmmm.. so the Amulet is a bit tricky isn't it?
It seems like the K&K Mini is more or less .. a good and/or at least, a more consistent pickup solution.

Don't mean to derail the thread..

Thx

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

I am one of the folks who was excited to try the Trance based on SpruceTop’s recommendation. The first install I did was excellent. I’m not sure I even followed all the directions on cure/clamp time. It just worked. The tone was natural and clean and it picked up all the highs and overtones that the K&K appears to be missing.

My second install was a complete bust. The pickup sounded thin and frail no matter how I installed. I tried 4 times. It was a clean bridge plate and I followed all the instructions. I assumed I had made some fatal error in the install, or it was defective. Trance sent me a new system after bench testing my preamp. The new system was a little better, but no where near as good as the first install. I sold the whole system to Cuki, who installed it about 8 times before getting the right tone.

So, I think this system can sound excellent and better than the other piezo based systems, especially the definition in the highs. However, for me, the install was hit or miss. Having it installed by a pro, who might use another method, seems like the right answer for Trance. However, now all my guitars have K&Ks and I’m using a the Zoom AC-2 pedal as a preamp. The K&K gets you about 75-85% of the quality of a Trance, but it’s dumb simple, requires no batteries, and isn’t fussy to install. However, it NEEDS EQ and/or processing. The Zoom AC-2 I am using has some subtle Aura-like imaging and EQ that adds “air” and resonance. I wouldn’t recommend the AC-2 to people who want professional top notch audiophile/studio quality. But, it works fine for me. The best piezo solution available today seems to be a combination of the passive K&K and Tonedexter. It doesn’t degrade the acoustic tone of the guitar and has the best amplified tone available today.

I feel the exact same way. Although I haven't had the opportunity to hear an excellent Amulet installation, my particular guitar just did not work well with this pickup. I tried at least 4-5 installations using shorter and longer clamping times and even repositioned the transducers. I was only able to get a thin and bright tone. Yes, I probably could experiment further but at the same time, I tend to lose focus/care when I try something a few times and the results never get any better.

I totally agree about the K&K. There's a reason why it's so popular. Simple installation, consistent results and it's passive. As high end as the Trance is, I do get a bit of hiss and it has picked up interference from my computer at times. I have moved to the tonedexter so considering the fact that I don't really need the most high end source, I might go back to the K&K. Just to clarify, when I say go back, I mean that I have tried the K&K in other guitars but never in this Taylor. I might even give the Schatten HFN a try. It's very similar the pure mini but I can use either foam tape or putty for the installation. I do like that method over glue. It's definitely worth a shot.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I feel the exact same way. Although I haven't had the opportunity to hear an excellent Amulet installation, my particular guitar just did not work well with this pickup. I tried at least 4-5 installations using shorter and longer clamping times and even repositioned the transducers. I was only able to get a thin and bright tone. Yes, I probably could experiment further but at the same time, I tend to lose focus/care when I try something a few times and the results never get any better.

I totally agree about the K&K. There's a reason why it's so popular. Simple installation, consistent results and it's passive. As high end as the Trance is, I do get a bit of hiss and it has picked up interference from my computer at times. I have moved to the tonedexter so considering the fact that I don't really need the most high end source, I might go back to the K&K. Just to clarify, when I say go back, I mean that I have tried the K&K in other guitars but never in this Taylor. I might even give the Schatten HFN a try. It's very similar the pure mini but I can use either foam tape or putty for the installation. I do like that method over glue. It's definitely worth a shot.

Hi Petty, if you plan to use the guitar with Tonedexter, don't bother with the Schatten. I had one of those too. :-) It's a decent pickup and sounds natural but it needs a LOT of EQ and a quality preamp to be its best. I would just stick to K&K. It works and it's what James is using with his own guitars. Of course he has his new K&K style pickup with resonance filter/phase cancellation. That might also be a bit complicated for some, but the results appear to be very good with Tonedexter. I think the only limitation with Trance is the tape install. If he can come up with another method that would better couple lens to the bridge plate, I'm sure it would be more fool proof. And, yes, I qualify as the fool.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I might even give the Schatten HFN a try.

OUCH! I tried one of these--bought directly from Schatten Design to make sure I had the latest rendition-in two dreadnoughts and that's what finally led me to biting the cost bullet and buy a Trance Amulet M system, and within an hour of installation, another! Difference between the two = NIGHT AND DAY! I'll admit that perhaps I should have been even more conscientious than I was with the Schatten HFN installations BUT If you do go the Schatten HFN route, prepare to get the three legs sanded just right so that the 3M foam tape holds ALL three legs securely to the top. Once you get the three legs sanded properly to make and keep intimate contact with the bridgeplate, a good use for any left-over Trance permanent tape just might be using it as a substitute for the 3M tape. Then there's superglue too! The Schatten HFN, however, does get my award for the best-looking pickup ever made!

[stevecuss]

If K&K could figure out a non superglue install that they liked, I think they'd be the best option for almost all situations.

Low cost, passive, decent sound, able to add a mic, works with Tone Dexter etc.

Having said that, I have the Trance - it just sounds so much clearer when installed properly. But it is more expensive, active and finicky.

[TranceAudioInc]

Hello, everyone! I’ve got some specific and general comments on this thread...

Martingitdave: I'm curious if you ever contacted us about the difficulties with your installation. If we did talk about your guitar and situation, I'm sure that we would have had a number of questions about your installation experience and your particular instrument, and probably would have been able to make some suggestions that would help produce a better result for you. I'm not seeing anything in your posts here (or in our phone logs) to suggest this has happened. I see that you created a chart at one point where you listed our system as an extremely difficult installation based on your experiences, although others have chimed in to disagree.

Now, if you did call and we were unable to help you with your installation troubles, then I am truly sorry, and I would stress here that this is not the typical experience our customers have. Even though you have moved on from owning a system, I would still really like to hear from you to discuss your experience in the hope that we could understand what might have gone wrong, and potentially improve our installation instructions.

Petty1818: I think you might have emailed us a while back (maybe when planning on purchasing a volume/tone wheel assembly?) and that we made a number of attempts since then via email to get you to call us or allow us to call you so that we could help you with your installation but for whatever reason, we have not been able to reach you.

In recent posts you mentioned that you still don't have what you consider to be a satisfactory sound with your installation, and that you have a hiss when you turn up the system (these symptoms are most likely related). However, we don't have anything in our recent phone logs that would suggest you’ve contacted us, although I've noticed you previously mentioned that you were planning to call us; we’d be happy to hear from you!

In our experience, customers who have difficulty getting a good sound from their installation often have missed or misunderstood a part of the instructions, or may have decided to improvise/improve part or all of the installation following advice from others, or have a mechanical problem with their instrument that can often be easily corrected by them or a local repairperson. Usually they will try a reinstall (possibly repeating the same unintentional mistakes), continue to get poor results until they run out of the adhesive and end up being incredibly frustrated. We can help diagnose these problems (no judgment), and have a good success rate in doing so when our customers run into trouble.

But in order for this to happen, YOU NEED TO CONTACT US.

I know I've said this here before, but I'll repeat it again:
We're here to help you.

It's very important to us that our customers are happy with their system, and we will do what we can to solve any difficulties, but we won't know about any problems unless you actually contact us.

There's just not enough time for us to monitor the forums, and we've been lucky to have customers and business associates call or email to notify us when they see something that needs to be addressed. (Many thanks to you!)

You can call us at: 831/688-9699 and email us at: [email protected]

I'd like to take this time to wish everyone Happy Holidays, and thank all of our wonderful customers for another amazing year (24 and counting!) here at Trance.

(By the way, we have something coming very soon in the New Year that's really cool, so keep an eye on our Facebook page and website!)

[martingitdave]

Gary, thanks for the response. We did talk by phone a few times. And, I appreciated the help. Frankly, it’s unclear what the issue with my second trance install was caused by. I followed the same installation process as I did with the first unit, which was successful. One of the issues that I have with the installation is the length of time required for the clamping. 8 hours for each lens successively means that it’s going to take me a day or two to get the unit installed. I recognize that it’s not burden if the results are as expected. But, it made for a frustrating trial and error period. Nonetheless, I’ll repeat that my first install was excellent. I remain interested in what you’ve got coming in the new year.

[Cuki79]

As pointed out by one other AGF member (was it Doug Young?), one of the advantage & drawback of the Trance Amulet is that you can perform many installations. It can lead to some frustration from pickup tone obsessed people (like me) as one may spend hours to install and reinstall the pickup. I spent 3 weeks installing and reinstalling (24h per install). I tried almost all positions advised in the AGF forum to conclude that the best was Trance Audio recommended position.

My experience with the Trance Audio is:
1) You have to call Gary FIRST and as many time you have doubts
2) The Amulet tone change slightly with position but don't expect miracles. My own experience is that as you leave the recommended position you gain on one side but you may lose on the other side.
3) Clamping is SUPER IMPORTANT. How clamp sits, how it pressures the pickup... This should not be neglected: ask Gary.
4) Baggs Lyric is way easier to install. You remove the plastic tape protection, you stick and it is done. However... You get the Lyric Pre-EQued and multiband compressed tone. My experience with Lyric position is that you can get more low end on position 3 but with poor headroom.
5) Amulet is one of the best sounding pickup on the market providing you buy the volume-tone control. I think the tone pot is SUPER important. Just watch Acoustic guitar magazine video review on youtube and make yourself an opinion.

To conclude, if you like the tone you hear on the Acoustic Guitar Magazine, this pickup is good for you. Once you bought it, call Gary and follow EXACTLY the instructions he gives you.

If then you are still frustrated with the tone... buy a Tonedexter.

Tone is subjective. I think Amulet has great dynamic, and great high end. Those are qualities no postprocessing can add (even custom IR).

PS: To my ear Amulet is not quack free. It's still a piezo based pickup.

Cuki

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

As pointed out by one other AGF member (was it Doug Young?), one of the advantage & drawback of the Trance Amulet is that you can perform many installations. It can lead to some frustration from pickup tone obsessed people (like me) as one may spend hours to install and reinstall the pickup. I spent 3 weeks installing and reinstalling (24h per install). I tried almost all positions advised in the AGF forum to conclude that the best was Trance Audio recommended position.

My experience with the Trance Audio is:
1) You have to call Gary FIRST and as many time you have doubts
2) The Amulet tone change slightly with position but don't expect miracles. My own experience is that as you leave the recommended position you gain on one side but you may lose on the other side.
3) Clamping is SUPER IMPORTANT. How clamp sits, how it pressures the pickup... This should not be neglected: ask Gary.
4) Baggs Lyric is way easier to install. You remove the plastic tape protection, you stick and it is done. However... You get the Lyric Pre-EQued and multiband compressed tone. My experience with Lyric position is that you can get more low end on position 3 but with poor headroom.
5) Amulet is one of the best sounding pickup on the market providing you buy the volume-tone control. I think the tone pot is SUPER important. Just watch Acoustic guitar magazine video review on youtube and make yourself an opinion.

To conclude, if you like the tone you hear on the Acoustic Guitar Magazine, this pickup is good for you. Once you bought it, call Gary and follow EXACTLY the instructions he gives you.

If then you are still frustrated with the tone... buy a Tonedexter.

Tone is subjective. I think Amulet has great dynamic, and great high end. Those are qualities no postprocessing can add (even custom IR).

PS: To my ear Amulet is not quack free. It's still a piezo based pickup.

Cuki

I've gotten good-sounding tone with overall clamping pressure on the Amulets as applied by lightweight C-clamps. I've yet to try Gary Hull's selective-area clamping method but will and I'm sure I'll achieve even better amplified tone by doing so.

I agree that the M-VT (Volume-Tone Wheeled sound-hole module) is a worthwhile option as it enables a player to achieve good tone within seconds and can greatly lessen dependence on outboard EQ/preamp devices. Usually, any additional EQ that may be needed can be supplied by that resident on an acoustic guitar amp or a mixing board.

[saxlylong]

Has anyone gone from a tape install to a cement install and noticed an improvement in tone? I am pretty happy with my tape install, but wouldn't mind switching to cement if it is that much better. I also noticed an improvement in tone by putting the treble lens on channel "A". Trimming down the treble to match the bass, instead of raising the bass to meet the treble seems to have made the tone much better. I am a heavy handed strummer and I noticed much less piezo "quack" to my ears. This install is in a 2017 J-45 standard.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by saxlylong

Has anyone gone from a tape install to a cement install and noticed an improvement in tone? I am pretty happy with my tape install, but wouldn't mind switching to cement if it is that much better. I also noticed an improvement in tone by putting the treble lens on channel "A". Trimming down the treble to match the bass, instead of raising the bass to meet the treble seems to have made the tone much better. I am a heavy handed strummer and I noticed much less piezo "quack" to my ears. This install is in a 2017 J-45 standard.

Prior to developing their "permanent" tape, Trance used to recommend Barge Cement (which formulation, Barge All Purpose Original?) to install the Amulets. I've not used Barge Cement for anything, and although it seems like it could be a messier process, I'm wondering if it would yield a thinner and more intimate coupling medium for the Amulet to the bridgeplate which could result in better amplified tone? I also wonder if Barge Cement enables fairly easy removal if the Amulets are to be removed for relocation?

Barge Cement Products

[saxlylong]

Right, I just haven't seen anyone post a firm A/B tone of the 2 methods. I would think since Trance currently recommends the tape, that the methods are sonically close, but the tape being easier to work with. I made the template out of 1/4 hardboard (masonite) which made the install placement easy and bang-on accurate to my measurements.

As I stated above, the biggest tone shift I found was switching the channels and trimming DOWN the treble, instead of trimming UP the bass. On my guitar, at the stock gain (50/50?), the treble was significantly hotter than the bass in the recommended lens placement. YMMV.

I run the Amulet through a Boss GT-100 with 6 channels of EQ and a slight bit of reverb. Sounds great. The EQ is more to shape the sound to fit in a band mix, vs having to radically EQ in order to get a good sound. The Amulet is much better than the Baggs Anthem SL and stock Baggs Element I had tried previously (IMHO). Also, I have the VT module, and it is a GOOD thing to have, even with all the EQ I am using.