Martins/Truss Rods/Intonation

[TRU]

If truss rods are so important to the setup on a guitar, why don't old Martins have them?
How can someone set the intonation and action on a vintage Martin as well as they can on a vintage Gibson?

[L20A]

What makes you think that old Martin guitars don't have truss rods?

My 81 D-35 has a non adjustable truss rod..
The neck is still doing good.

[Earl49]

First off, truss rods only adjust the amount of relief (neck curvature) and not the overall action per se. Relief is only one component of action adjustments, and not even the biggest element. Nut slot depth and then saddle height are more important.

Martin is a VERY traditional company. Adjustable truss rods were only added in the 1980's, long after almost every other builder had been using them. Before that, Martin used a solid square tube or a T-bar, or other variations of neck reinforcement. The only way to adjust the relief on that kind of neck is to re-fret with compression fretting - not a trivial process. On the other hand, such necks only move when you change string gauges, as a rule.

[Osage]

Originally Posted by TRU

If truss rods are so important to the setup on a guitar, why don't old Martins have them?
How can someone set the intonation and action on a vintage Martin as well as they can on a vintage Gibson?

There are people believe that the Solid Martin T-bar and the earlier Ebony reinforcement bar sound better than a modern adjustable truss rods.

As far as setting up a guitar, an adjustable rod has next to nothing to do with intonation and as noted above, is only a small component to setting the action.

What it does is address neck relief. One of the big advantages of an adjustable rod is that you can straighten a bowed neck without major work.

As far as Martin's are concerned. The early ebony rods and then the T-bars, work quite well, which is a big reason that they used them for so long. They switched to the hollow metal rod in the late 60's and these aren't as stable as the T-bar. They only used these for about a decade before switching to an adjustable rod. From what I have been told, the switch was due in large part to the high failure rate of the hollow metal rod.

[Mandobart]

The truss rod has a very minimal effect on intonation. Intonation up the fretboard is determined by the vibrating string length. On an archtop it is easily adjusted by slight movement of the bridge toward the nut or tailpiece. On a typical fixed bridge flattop its all in the saddle compensation.

Down on the low frets (1 through 7, where honestly most of us live) your nut slot angle and depth most effect intonation. Truss rod isn't doing anything down there. Run far and fast from any "guitar tech" who says he'll fix your intonation with a truss rod adjustment.

[justonwo]

Well, Martin made those guitars before action and intonation were invented.

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

.....Run far and fast from any "guitar tech" who says he'll fix your intonation with a truss rod adjustment.

That is some wisdom!

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Osage

There are people believe that the Solid Martin T-bar and the earlier Ebony reinforcement bar sound better than a modern adjustable truss rods.

As far as Martin's are concerned. The early ebony rods and then the T-bars, work quite well, which is a big reason that they used them for so long.

As the owner of a '72 D35 I can tell you that there is little disadvantage to having a non adjustable truss rod in this guitar. The relief is exceptionally stable. Living in Chicago where the climate can be all over the place during the year, my other guitars require relief adjustments at least once a season. The Martin just keeps keeping on. I probably can feel a very minute change , but it is very slight (I haven't gone to the trouble of measuring because I typically adjust truss rods by feel and sound).

I cannot attest to the reason my '72 sounds better than latter day models- but it does. My step-son has a 2003 D35 and sound wise it is a different instrument. Not that it isn't good...but not as warm and lush as mine. Could the T-bar support contribute to the tone? Perhaps. Everything that comes in contact with the guitar affects the tonal nodes. If you take my word for it that bridge pins can make a significant difference, then it would be hard to doubt that having an embedded T-bar wouldn't make a difference compared to a modern truss rod. If you want to see how something so insignificant can change a guitar's response, just clamp a substantial capo (i.e. Thalia) onto the headstock or directly on the nut. You will hear a change if your ears are capable.

Intonation is a different story. In the 70's Martin cut the saddle slots a bit too close to the fingerboard and knocked the intonation off. They must have had a jig that was off and didn't catch the problem for years. In the case of my '72, the bridge has been filled and saddle slot(s) recut (it has a split saddle now) to fix Martin's intonation error. I bring this as based on early replies I am concerned that the issue of truss rod and intonation might be thought of as being mashed up in to one issue, when in fact they are two separate things.

[1Charlie]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

As the owner of a '72 D35 I can tell you that there is little disadvantage to having a non adjustable truss rod in this guitar. The relief is exceptionally stable. Living in Chicago where the climate can be all over the place during the year, my other guitars require relief adjustments at least once a season. The Martin just keeps keeping on. I probably can feel a very minute change , but it is very slight (I haven't gone to the trouble of measuring because I typically adjust truss rods by feel and sound).

I cannot attest to the reason my '72 sounds better than latter day models- but it does. My step-son has a 2003 D35 and sound wise it is a different instrument. Not that it isn't good...but not as warm and lush as mine. Could the T-bar support contribute to the tone? Perhaps. Everything that comes in contact with the guitar affects the tonal nodes. If you take my word for it that bridge pins can make a significant difference, then it would be hard to doubt that having an embedded T-bar wouldn't make a difference compared to a modern truss rod. If you want to see how something so insignificant can change a guitar's response, just clamp a substantial capo (i.e. Thalia) onto the headstock or directly on the nut. You will hear a change if your ears are capable.

Intonation is a different story. In the 70's Martin cut the saddle slots a bit too close to the fingerboard and knocked the intonation off. They must have had a jig that was off and didn't catch the problem for years. In the case of my '72, the bridge has been filled and saddle slot(s) recut (it has a split saddle now) to fix Martin's intonation error. I bring this as based on early replies I am concerned that the issue of truss rod and intonation might be thought of as being mashed up in to one issue, when in fact they are two separate things.

Your '72 actually has a square tube neck reinforcement, not a T-bar. The switch was made in 1967.

[cuthbert]

Originally Posted by TRU

If truss rods are so important to the setup on a guitar, why don't old Martins have them?
How can someone set the intonation and action on a vintage Martin as well as they can on a vintage Gibson?

That's the reason why vintage Martin were hard to play guitars, and even in the late 90s the shop owner where I hanged around sent a letter to Nazareth asking why Martins were so uncomfortable, the answer was that Martin made guitars for serious professionals with strong hands.

Seriously.

Having said that the neck relief is irrelevant for intonation, regarding the action is effecient just until the 7th fret or so, from there neck angle and saddle height dominate.

Originally Posted by Osage

There are people believe that the Solid Martin T-bar and the earlier Ebony reinforcement bar sound better than a modern adjustable truss rods.

.

There are people who believe in fairy tales.

The ebony reinforcement is the traditional solution for classical guitars that work with half of the tension of steel strings...in the last 25 Martins have just improved in terms of playbility, however they are still hard guitars to play, especially out of the box.