Mic position - question

Wrighty · #1 10-01-2020, 05:20 AM

Hi all

I have been playing around a lot with mic positions over the recent months - tried many and generally come back to some form of AB set up for the best balance of width, clarity and warmth.

Generally the A/B tends to centre around left mic pointing at 12th fret and right mic somewhere around the bridge - generally parallel.

I do however see a lot of variations, some wider spaced and pointing inwards towards the sound hole, and others narrower spaced and pointing outwards towards the 12th/bridge.

I am trying to understand the implications of these variations and what one might expect?

The recorded tone I refer to most often is achieved by Carl Miner in his TNAG video's, and whilst I realise that much of this is attributable to his skill as a player, I can't help but notice that his mic positioning is quite different, in that it appears to be a spaced pair that converges much more tightly on the sound hole. The left mic looks to be pointed over the bridge towards the sound hole and the right mic looks to point across the end of the neck join to the sound hole.

I would love to hear from our resident experts as to what your thoughts are on both the angles of placement (out to in / in to out) and also the directionality used in the video and how that contributes (or not) to the tone.

Thanks in advance.

Peter

keith.rogers · #2 10-01-2020, 05:41 AM

Differences like that might have to do with the recording engineer's preference, or in some cases, the performer's, if they've done enough recordings to know that small angle changes like that can help, e.g., maybe a little less string noise if that neck joint mic is tipped in more to the 15th fret, say. And, it could be something the engineer hears when they are setting up.

I didn't see any comments about what was done in post either (i.e., no comment that said "no EQ, compression, etc."), so any side-effects, like maybe more/less this or that [frequency/noise] could have been addressed in mixing, too.

RoyBoy · #3 10-01-2020, 06:23 AM

Don't really have knowledge about the intricacies of mic placement, but I'd say torrefied Andirondack over Brazilian rosewood from the masterful hands of Dana Bourgeois has a lot to do with it. I hadn't seen these series of videos, thanks for sharing this one.

Wrighty · #4 10-01-2020, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyBoy

Don't really have knowledge about the intricacies of mic placement, but I'd say torrefied Andirondack over Brazilian rosewood from the masterful hands of Dana Bourgeois has a lot to do with it. I hadn't seen these series of videos, thanks for sharing this one.

No doubt it's a stellar guitar, but as you work through his others (there are lots to enjoy) you might find, as I have, that his tone is similar on many different makes and sizes of guitar :-)

rick-slo · #5 10-01-2020, 08:08 AM

The mikes seem to point right at soundhole - normally not a good thing - though it's hard to be sure as to how far out from
the guitar that the mikes are. As far as the playing and the music it's mostly undamped low notes in a dropped D tuning and
played with a flat pick and digging in with it. Also all arpeggios or single notes played at any given moment. Things likely would
tend to muddy up more on block chording or things with a quicker pace. Notes as played add to a fatter fuller sound yet with
clearly distinct notes. Whatever works well in the circumstances but may not translate to other situations.

Wrighty · #6 10-01-2020, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-slo

The mikes seem to point right at soundhole - normally not a good thing - though it's hard to be sure as to how far out from
the guitar that the mikes are. As far as the playing and the music it's mostly undamped low notes in a dropped D tuning and
played with a flat pick and digging in with it. Also all arpeggios or single notes played simultaneously. Things likely would tend
to muddy up more on block chording or things with a quicker pace. Those things add to a fatter fuller sound yet clear notes.
Whatever works well in the circumstances but may not translate to other situations.

Noted re the playing, and while this is not the same mics or position the sound s far from muddy?

Howard Emerson · #7 10-01-2020, 08:42 AM

Peter,
I’m not an expert, but I get to record with a lot of different mics with a great engineer.

Have you ever considered putting on your headphones, and moving around until you heard a sound that appealed to your ears, regardless of technical correctness?

Regards,
Howard Emerson

Wrighty · #8 10-01-2020, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Peter,
I’m not an expert, but I get to record with a lot of different mics with a great engineer.

Have you ever considered putting on your headphones, and moving around until you heard a sound that appealed to your ears, regardless of technical correctness?

Regards,
Howard Emerson

Thanks Howard - I have done that many times but it can be a bit of a rabbit hole in my opinion and soaks up a lot of valuable time. I would prefer to have a base position to start from and tweak from there.

I was just interested in this case, because it did not appear to be the normal positing of mics yet yield a great tone.

AcousticDreams · #9 10-01-2020, 08:46 AM

Sent you a PM

rick-slo · #10 10-01-2020, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Noted re the playing, and while this is not the same mics or position the sound s far from muddy?

Mikes out a ways, not pointed directly at sound hole (at least the left one). Open D strumming on the lower three strings ring harmoniously.
Flatpicking rather than fingerstyle. Good sound but not remarkable given the above.

Don't know in this case but it can be difficult to be sure if the recording was done as in the video.

FrankHudson · #11 10-01-2020, 10:30 AM

There are folks a lot more expert and accomplished that I am here who may comment, and we're only looking at that first video from the camera eye's view, but from that perspective I think that the mic on the right is aimed at the bridge and the one of the left is aimed at roughly the neck/body join or 12th fret area.

Hard to tell from the camera eye view. If someone had a camera overhead we'd know more about the placement, but of course that's not the point of the video.

My ears hear a fair amount of reverb in that recording too, which makes things sound richer and more ambient and adds to the guitars note sustain.

Later in the thread you may get more experienced and better opinions than this one.

Wrighty · #12 10-02-2020, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

There are folks a lot more expert and accomplished that I am here who may comment, and we're only looking at that first video from the camera eye's view, but from that perspective I think that the mic on the right is aimed at the bridge and the one of the left is aimed at roughly the neck/body join or 12th fret area.

Hard to tell from the camera eye view. If someone had a camera overhead we'd know more about the placement, but of course that's not the point of the video.

My ears hear a fair amount of reverb in that recording too, which makes things sound richer and more ambient and adds to the guitars note sustain.

Later in the thread you may get more experienced and better opinions than this one.

Hi Frank

You are, of course, correct - it’s difficult to see with any level of accuracy but to me what was interesting was the angle of attack so to speak, given that both mics are pointed out to in at a fair angle (close to 90’) as opposed to standard parallel.

Regardless of effects added, the tone sounds balanced and articulate to me with good bass and good trebles and I feel that mic placement may be a factor given how important it is in the process.

Thanks for the input.

Peter

rick-slo · #13 10-02-2020, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Hi Frank

You are, of course, correct - it’s difficult to see with any level of accuracy but to me what was interesting was the angle of attack so to speak, given that both mics are pointed out to in at a fair angle (close to 90’) as opposed to standard parallel.
Peter

Spaced pair angled mikes versus perpendicular to the guitar is quite typical mike placement for me and others who record.

Wrighty · #14 10-02-2020, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Spaced pair angled mikes versus perpendicular to the guitar is quite typical mike placement for me and others who record.

What about in to out vs out to in - any reason why one might be chosen over the other?

Doug Young · #15 10-02-2020, 12:48 PM

This is hard to generalize. Mics have frequency-dependent variations in their polar patterns and off-axis response. With most mics, it tends to be pretty subtle, at least in this application if you're just talking about close micing a guitar and making small angle changes. You could give this a try, just place a mic at some location and then rotate it. See what you hear.

With two mics, you're more likely to hear changes in the stereo image. For example, for XY, the mics would nominally be at 90 degrees, but people go less (narrower image) or more (wider).

The Townsend mic is really useful for this kind of experiment, BTW. You can virtually place the mic during mixdown, rotating it so that you're picking up off-axis sound, moving it closer or further away, and so on, all in the software after you've recorded, while listening to the playback. They also have a mode that creates a "perfect" polar response where the off axis response doesn't vary by frequency, so you can compare how that sounds vs the accurate model that has different responses per frequency. It ends up being kind of virtual lab for understanding polar patterns, off-axis response, proximity effect and so on, as well as different mic choices. You can actually download the plugin free, and pre-recorded sample tracks to play with without buying the mic. I forget if they have any acoustic guitar samples.