Learning classical style

[BillyMays]

I'm currently learning to play classical style by way of finger picking. I have found that I have a much easier time picking and getting my placement right standing up rather than sitting with my foot propped up. Have any of you experienced this or do you have any advice that I could use to make it easier? I find it easier to get the guitar in position to keep my knuckles in line with the fretboard.

I have mostly been just plucking away without any actual training in the past by way of reading and watching YouTube. I'm guessing that it has caused me to learn terrible habits and poor muscle memory (by way of form). Maybe there are some exercises that I can do? I do have an instructor, but our time is limited together and I am mostly on my own after he gives advice and worksheets / exercises to work through until the next lesson. Should I just keep going the way I am and let my instructor work through the holdups?

Any help or advice is appreciated, thanks guys!

[mercy]

A Neck Up or Dynarette will help you hold the guitar correctly. Arpeggios are the core of all music. There are books or you can figure out your own which helps to learn theory.

[nightflight]

When playing classical, and when playing pieces that move up and down the neck, positioning the guitar correctly lets you move around the neck more easily and with your wrist in a more comfortable position. You can use a stook, a cushion, or any number of supports that attach with suction cups (as long as your guitar does not have a French polish finish).

You have a teacher... why not discuss this with him? He might have recommendations also.

[BillyMays]

I will definitely be talking with him about it on Wed. during my next lesson. I have been picking away a lot this weekend and it has been something that I started to think about today. I noticed that it was a lot easier to keep my form while standing up. Heck, it may be something as simple as the chair I'm sitting in and may be just overthinking it.

[TBman]

I have a Cordoba C5 and I was able to find some suction cups with wing nuts that allowed me to use a strap without drilling. The cups haven't affected the finish of the guitar as yet and they have been on for about 8 months. I just didn't find using a foot stool comfortable and using a strap gave me the neck up I needed and the security of the guitar not moving.

I was teaching myself classical after 50+ years of playing steel string. I found that the right hand tone makes you or breaks you. The fretting hand is actually the easy part of classical. In my signature the second tune, "Through A Window", is me playing on my Cordoba. The tone just isn't there. I was trying to use just flesh, but nylon really needs nails to get "that" sound. I might give it another try at some point.

[David Rance]

I agree TBman. Right hand technique and getting a beautiful sound off the string is very important on the classical instrument. Most but not all play with a combination of pulp and nail and getting that just right with an understanding of apoyando and tirando, precise control of the passage of the string across the nail and how to hold and shape the right hand are all vital and difficult. And don't touch the top which deadens its vibration much more than on an acoustic! A good teacher is probably a must or you'll take literally years to discover it all for yourself. Get it right and you'll achieve an achingly beautiful sound off the strings of a good instrument. Get it wrong and you never will.

Left hand technique is different too though. Classical technique suggests a much less twisted, more 90° angle to the fretboard position for the hand generally with the thumb positioned at the apex of the curve of the neck and very mobile along the neck. And definitely no playing the 6th string with your thumb over the top!! Even if your hand is big enough to do it around the much wider neck!

Generally there's much more technique to classical. It is ideal to learn standard notation sight reading too. Classical guitar scores are written in the Treble clef, one octave off and are marked up with much more guidance on fingering i.e. precisely which finger to play a note with. Both Rt hand (pima) and Lt, given that you can play the same note at different frets. Tabs are a little frowned on and deemed unnecessary.

The sitting position is less orthopaedically comfortable. Especially on the lower back and neck. Regular rests and stretching good idea as you age. Supports like the suction Gitano and little cushions like the Dynarette can help.

Acoustic technique, despite what people say about wide bodied guitar is much more variable, free, comfortable and individual. It's certainly less defined which can be nice. The tone off an acoustic can be just as beautiful too IMHO. Just different.

Finding a nice classical ensemble to play in is nice and sociable. Especially one which concentrates on playing. Scores get split into parts with the better players playing the lead. The standardisation of the music and the amount of instruction on classical guitar music is helpful but boy do you have to practice! Going to a session unprepared? Not good!

[Su_H.]

I can't comment on your left hand. I think that's a question you should address your instructor.

For right hand, i googled PIM and PIMA techniques. It has helped me tremendously in correcting my right hand.

[rmp]

Originally Posted by BillyMays

I will definitely be talking with him about it on Wed. during my next lesson. I have been picking away a lot this weekend and it has been something that I started to think about today. I noticed that it was a lot easier to keep my form while standing up. Heck, it may be something as simple as the chair I'm sitting in and may be just overthinking it.

The suggestion a few posts back for a neck up strap is a good one.

These really are great. Your posture and comfort is pretty key.

The 50 bucks you'll spend on this strap will make it so that you can sit quite comfortably while playing, the guitar will remain in the correct position. IMHO... It's a game changer, especially for long sessions. I use mine all the time.

lots of ppl use foot stools, but for me they are not as comfortable, and they make my back hurt.

[Don W]

I too began playing classical style about 2 years ago and have been playing steel string fingerstyle for many years. I forced myself to play my classical guitar on the left leg up on a stand so that the knee of that leg is a little higher than the hip. I began all of this due to shoulder pain. When the right shoulder hurts I play my classical on the left leg. When the left shoulder hurts I play my steel string on the right leg as I had for many years. I am now comfortable with the classical position but not with my Larrivee...it has a much bigger body than a standard classical.

[MThomson]

Originally Posted by BillyMays

I will definitely be talking with him about it on Wed. during my next lesson. I have been picking away a lot this weekend and it has been something that I started to think about today. I noticed that it was a lot easier to keep my form while standing up. Heck, it may be something as simple as the chair I'm sitting in and may be just overthinking it.

It could easily be seated posture - looking specifically at the phrase "chair I'm sitting in". When I was taught classical, I was taught to use a hard chair and almost to perch on the front edge of it with the foot raised. I would never have described myself as being "in" a chair. Feel free to ignore if I'm overthinking the words you used.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Years ago I used to cross paths with a busker in Harvard Square who played classical pieces exclusively, but standing up like a folk singer, complete with guitar strap.
So it can be done well. I've seen and heard it.
This player though was obviously classically trained. He was an excellent player and drew a good crowd. Although he was standing, he might as well have been sitting with the guitar propped up on his left leg and a with a foot stool. His "classical" hand positions were what gave him away.

I'm thinking that he most likely learned classical like any other student, and then adapted himself to his preferred style of busking standing up.
So, if you are intent on learning classical, I think the proper sequence would be to learn the body basics and tone production techniques of the conventional classical method, i.e. sitting down with proper posture etc...and once you're comfortable with the production of good classical tone, try to move it standing if that's what you prefer.
Learning right off the bat standing might be a lot more difficult to accomplish.

[BillyMays]

Originally Posted by TBman

I was trying to use just flesh, but nylon really needs nails to get "that" sound. I might give it another try at some point.

My instructor is very adamant about this. He actually spent a lot of time explaining the proper nail shape and stressing how important fingernails are to playing classical.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by BillyMays

My instructor is very adamant about this. He actually spent a lot of time explaining the proper nail shape and stressing how important fingernails are to playing classical.

Yes, if you go classical, do it 100%. Halfway won't cut it. Good luck with it!

[ceciltguitar]

BillyMays, over the past 50 years I’ve seen, read and heard so many different - often contradictory - opinions regarding “correct classical guitar technique”. Enough to make your head spin. I’ve participated in and observed many masterclasses, attended at least a hundred live concerts by internationally acclaimed artists, studied with a few prominent classical guitar teachers, talented jazz guitarists, and a Flamenco player and teacher who studied and practically lived with one of the prominent Flamenco families in Spain. And watched hundreds, maybe thousands of YouTube’s.

There are talented classical guitarists using all kinds of different approaches to guitar techniques:

There are staunch advocates of playing with nails and equally staunch players who believe that that it is better to play classical guitar without nails.

There are at least 2 schools of thought about playing with nails - playing with the left side of the nail and playing with the right side of the nail. Segovia advocated playing with the left side of the nail, although he had a very high opinion of Ida Presti, who played exclusively with the right side of the nails. And guess what - many of the “founding fathers” of “classical guitar” played without nails.

There are those who say that rest strokes are essential, and others who say that rest strokes are outdated and should never be used. And those who play rest strokes are further subdivided into 2 camps, those who flex the most distal finger joint, and those who maintain a rigid distal joint.

There are those who insist on various methods of right hand / right thumb or finger preparatory planting, and those who believe in never planting.

There are those who insist on a footstool or different guitar supports. Traditional “classical guitar posture has the guitar propped up on the left leg with a footstool. Traditional Flamenco posture involves holding lower outer curve of the guitar on the right leg. More modern Flamenco posture, popularized by Paco De Lucia, has the guitarist holding the guitar in a more relaxed position with the middle, inner curve of the guitar on the right leg, instead of the lower outer curve of the guitar on the right leg. There are some of us, including me, that make up a minority of “classical guitarists” that play guitar standing up with a strap. Then there is Paul Galbraith, an incredible guitarist who plays an 8 string classical guitar that he holds like a cello.

So I suggest to learn everything that you can from anyone that you want to learn from, experiment with posture and techniques and see what works best for YOU. Don’t let anyone’s dogmatic insistence on a certain technique or a certain posture limit your options.

ENJOY THE RIDE!!!

[Always Learning]

"I'm currently learning to play classical style by way of finger picking."

Billy/Daniel
If by learning to play classical style you mean pieces that range from the Medieval to Late 1800s. Most instructors will start you out with "Studies" (Estudios) pieces that are comprised of scales and arpeggios that specifically address the correct left and right hand positioning.

"I have found that I have a much easier time picking and getting my placement right standing up rather than sitting with my foot propped up. Have any of you experienced this or do you have any advice that I could use to make it easier?"

True classical guitar instructors will have you sit rather then stand. This is so your left hand (fretting hand) is placed in a comfortable position which puts less stress on the hand, arm and shoulder. The headstock of your instrument should be at eye level. If you have been used to playing a guitar in a standing position with the aid of strap, I can see why this might seem awkward, strange or uncomfortable at first. You are actually learning a new "style" of guitar playing. My suggestion... get rid of the foot stool... there are guitar supports out there that allow you to keep both feet firmly planted on the ground. I own several which makes all the difference in the world.

"I have mostly been just plucking away without any actual training in the past by way of reading and watching YouTube. I'm guessing that it has caused me to learn terrible habits and poor muscle memory (by way of form). Maybe there are some exercises that I can do? I do have an instructor, but our time is limited together and I am mostly on my own after he gives advice and worksheets / exercises to work through until the next lesson. Should I just keep going the way I am and let my instructor work through the holdups?"

Has this instructor helped you with your sitting position? Shown you the proper way of holding the guitar and placement of hands? Is his background in teaching "classical" guitar? If yes give it time. It can actually takes months, to feel you are getting somewhere. Don't get discouraged. Sit down and caress that guitar like you would a lover. Make love to it. You'll be surprised, it will love you back.

"Any help or advice is appreciated, thanks guys!"

Google Bradford Werner of "This is Classical Guitar" or Allen Mathews of "Classical Guitar Shed"... Their YouTube instructions may help.

Also Look for Aaron Shearer's guitar method books 1 and 2 and also Bradford Werner's method books. They are a good foundation.

Best of luck