814ceDLX- old vs V-class revisited

[vindibona1]

If you're like me you'll fall in love with a guitar- and then fall out of love with it. There are lots of reasons for that. And recently I had an opportunity to play a pre- V-class 814ceDLX side by side with the NEW v-class version. I had my initial impressions and I think I even wrote them up. But I wanted to go back and have a second go-round before one was sold off. So I went back on Thursday.

I gotta say, I wasn't that impressed with the V-class 814ceDLX the first time and seemingly even less so on the second bite. Side by side with the original the v-class was overly bright, lacked the volume of the original and was lacking articulation of mids, IMO the defining difference between the original DLX and the standard CE. I was there with a friend and he felt the same way, probably even moreso. He told me what he was hearing and as he described it was pretty much what I was hearing from behind the guitar.

Obviously this is my opinion, with my ears, my expectations and preferences. But for me, I felt that this particular unit, if not the model design the move to V-Class was not at all an improvement.

While there I happened to see a 414 special edition sunburst Taylor that I tried and also played, alternating between it and the 814ceDLX-V and sonically it just ran circles around it. I was so impressed by the look and sound of this particular 414 unit that I'm posting the link to it in case anyone is looking for for an incredible 414-r. It's a couple hundred more than a standard 414, but this is one of the best Taylors I've ever played, very much like the regular 814ceDLX, but a tad darker, but still very full. Here's the link to the model. This particular unit is in Highland Park IL (and I don't think the link refers directly to the one in this store). https://www.guitarcenter.com/Taylor/...tric-Guitar.gc

Anyway... My point is, while Taylor is touting the V-class as the new revolution and believes in it so much that they are redesigning their whole line around it I remain skeptical. I believe it could help some models, while it might hurt others. I don't know. I'm sure others here will play the new models as they come out and report on their findings. Again... This is all my personal opinion. YMMV

[cotten]

I got to audition a V-class 814ce for a few minutes yesterday. I'm a big fan of Taylors and like the two I have. Could I hear some differences with the newer bracing? Yes, but with my relatively soft fingerstyle touch, it wasn't a lot. I am very glad Andy Powers and company are continuing to innovate, but I don't think for a heartbeat that the new V-class has made my older Taylors obsolete.

If I were buying a new guitar, I would certainly entertain the new Taylors, but came away from that audition still loving my Taylors, built in 1995 and 2000.

cotten

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by cotten

I got to audition a V-class 814ce for a few minutes yesterday. I'm a big fan of Taylors and like the two I have. Could I hear some differences with the newer bracing? Yes, but with my relatively soft fingerstyle touch, it wasn't a lot. I am very glad Andy Powers and company are continuing to innovate, but I don't think for a heartbeat that the new V-class has made my older Taylors obsolete.

If I were buying a new guitar, I would certainly entertain the new Taylors, but came away from that audition still loving my Taylors, built in 1995 and 2000.

cotten

I think you just have to audition new prospective purchases in person and consider each individual unit before buying. As you say, the new stuff hasn't made the old stuff obsolete- except from a marketing standpoint.

I have a 2011 614ce that after dialing it in know that I have a world class guitar. Pretty much the same thing with my own 814ceDLX. If someone offered my a straight up swap of my guitar with the V-class model I wouldn't need even a second to decline the offer.

I want to emphasize that I'm not dissing Taylor or the concept of the V-class. I'm just saying that my personal experience with this model and these particular units yielded my opinion and that I'm just saying as I always have, that every guitar is unique unto itself and doesn't matter who makes it, which model designation or what it costs. It's all about the sound, the music and how you feel about it.

[noledog]

I had some quiet quality time comparing two new 814's, one old bracing and one new V-class. A friend and me played each comparing the two thru several different styles. We both came to same conclusion that we preferred the warmer tone of the older braced version. They both lack some punch in the mids and frankly sound a bit sterile to me, however, the older 814 sounded fuller to us both. As far as intonation goes, they both were good.

[L20A]

Was the 414 the old bracing?
It will be interesting to hear comments about the new bracing in 4 or 5 years after the guitars have started to open up.
It almost sounds like this is what you are hearing now when comparing the old to the new.

[Jeff Scott]

I was at a TRS a couple weeks ago and got to try a V braced Taylor (an 814ceV, the only V braced guitar out of around 30 or so on hand . I thought they would have had more given it was "The Way of the Future" ). It sounded just like a guitar, except that it had very little bottom end to it (or, maybe it seemed that way given how bright sounding it was). I was not impressed, too much, by this new technology of theirs.

[pjroberts]

I have not played the new V-brace, but have two of the previously revocied Powers models, an 814 and 616. I have listened to a ton of demos — I’m really into evolutoin and innovation, that’s what my career has been all about. But the new V braces haven’t stood out for me enough to take the simple trip downtown, mostly because they sound tepid on the low end, and this IMO is exactly what Powers fixed in the 2014 models. My last gens sit really nice with my other more traditional sounds, they fill that modern (and yes, Taylor) niche for a good chunk of stuff I play. I will try one when I run into one, but they’re not calling my name like the 2014 model did.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by noledog

I had some quiet quality time comparing two new 814's, one old bracing and one new V-class. A friend and me played each comparing the two thru several different styles. We both came to same conclusion that we preferred the warmer tone of the older braced version. They both lack some punch in the mids and frankly sound a bit sterile to me, however, the older 814 sounded fuller to us both. As far as intonation goes, they both were good.

That's why I went for the DLX model. It picks up more of the mids, though not as much boomy bass.

Originally Posted by L20A

Was the 414 the old bracing?.

Yes. It was the standard "old" bracing. This guitar was fabulous and we enjoyed it as much as the "old" 814ceDLX. As it as $1500 cheaper than the 814DLX had I to make that choice right now I'd have gone home with this particular 414. It's gorgeous in person as well as great sounding.

Originally Posted by Jeff Scott

I was at a TRS a couple weeks ago and got to try a V braced Taylor (an 814ceV, the only V braced guitar out of around 30 or so on hand . I thought they would have had more given it was "The Way of the Future" ). It sounded just like a guitar, except that it had very little bottom end to it (or, maybe it seemed that way given how bright sounding it was). I was not impressed, too much, by this new technology of theirs.

That's how I felt too. I had previously played a Presentation series model at CME several weeks ago ($9000) and came away feeling "meh".

Originally Posted by pjroberts

I have not played the new V-brace, but have [played] two of the previously revocied Powers models, an 814 and 616. I have listened to a ton of demos — I’m really into evolutoin and innovation, that’s what my career has been all about. But the new V braces haven’t stood out for me enough to take the simple trip downtown, mostly because they sound tepid on the low end, and this IMO is exactly what Powers fixed in the 2014 models. My last gens sit really nice with my other more traditional sounds, they fill that modern (and yes, Taylor) niche for a good chunk of stuff I play. I will try one when I run into one, but they’re not calling my name like the 2014 model did.

Yeah... The old/new 814 was really a wonderful revision. I liked the 616 better than the newer 614. But for whatever reason Taylor did not produce a lot of 600's. I've only seen 3 or 4 since they were revoiced a couple years ago. But yeah the bass is as you say "tepid". And from the 814ceDLXv I felt that the highs were just too much. What comes of the other models when they show up is yet to be seen. I'm waiting to see how the 200/300 series models respond to the new bracing. That will be interesting. And if they're respond well, what might that do to the sales of Taylors higher end?

[ii Cybershot ii]

I still think the Taylor Standard II bracing made their best sounding guitars. Not the CV, not the Advanced Performance, not the V-brace. The good ol' Standard II!

[Shades of Blue]

I personally think Taylor is taking a huge risk in deploying V class bracing throughout its entire lineup without at least beta testing one or two models for a year. Maybe they know their target market will blindly eat it up without questioning, but if it fails, it means retooling everything again down the road.

I think this was a business decision to save money somehow. Maybe V class saves wood or costs, or is more simple to produce. Something other than tone and sound has to be behind a ramp up to V class bracing this quickly.

Or maybe they just believe in their marketing this much...

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Shades of Blue

I personally think Taylor is taking a huge risk in deploying V class bracing throughout its entire lineup without at least beta testing one or two models for a year. Maybe they know their target market will blindly eat it up without questioning, but if it fails, it means retooling everything again down the road.

I think this was a business decision to save money somehow. Maybe V class saves wood or costs, or is more simple to produce. Something other than tone and sound has to be behind a ramp up to V class bracing this quickly.

Or maybe they just believe in their marketing this much...

I think you've pretty much asked and answered some of the questions of us skeptics. To enunciate your points, Taylor is a marketing juggernaut. They've also along the way figured out (in many instances) how to make their products cheaper and label them as "upgrades and improvements".

Cases in point: Taylor did the unthinkable and produced higher end guitars with BOLT-ON necks calling it the "NT" neck. This would have been unthinkable with any other guitar builder. You can only imagine how much cheaper it is to bolt on a neck rather than glue it in.

And we have instances 3-piece backed (i.e. 614ce) was changed to a 2-piece back. But it's easier to book match two pieces rather than fit 3 together, but the 3-piece version typically sounds warmer and richer. Then we have the ES1 system replaced by the ES2. It is easier to just bolt on a piezo at the bridge or have a magnetic pickup under the neck and another pickup on the body, all linked together? And then there is striped ebony. I'm sure they did it (partially) for the right reasons to conserve ebony forests. But we all know that it had to reduce their cost for fingerboards significantly. Yet their prices didn't go down with the savings.

And now V-class bracing. I'm not a luthier, so here are two photos; advanced performance vs v-class bracing. Think of how long it takes to create the pieces that contribute to each of these systems and the time it takes to mount them on the guitar top. You decide which one is more complicated and which are more expensive to build. Taylor is reported to make over 40,000 units per year.

Taylor's main business goal is one thing and one thing only: To sell more NEW guitars.

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

...how to make their products cheaper and label them as "upgrades and improvements"...

That's how us old photographers feel about modern b&w emulsions, for the most part. "New and improved" means cheaper to make (less silver in the emulsion). I will say that I much prefer TMX to "standard" formulas (PX, FP4, etc).

[IndyHD28]

I have a custom HD28V in Guatemalan Rosewood which I truly love and a Martin custom Sinker dread on order to cover the Mahogany base. I want to round out my little collection with a third tonewood in a smaller body size with electronics. I was interested in Martin’s OME Cherry for a while.

Then I got bit by the Taylor bug.

Our local Taylor specialist has a K14ce Builders Edition which I have test driven three times now. It sounds great and does everything Taylor claims it will do. They have other V-Class guitars but the one that really amazed me was the 512ce cedar over mahogany. Coming from a Martin perspective, I had never seen nor played this soundboard and found it impressive. However, my dollars are going to vote for the stunning K24ce LTD V-Class. The hardwood top perhaps benefits most from the increased resonance allowed by V bracing. BTW, a Taylor dealer has said that Taylor has announced they are “sold out” on Koa for 2018 and will be accepting no new Koa orders. So, look for a scramble for remaining Koa guitar inventory. [Volcano related? Don’t know.]

After test driving several models (and coming from a Martin perspective), I have to say I like it and I’m going to buy one. I will obviously learn more once I have it home to A/B for several days against my Martins but I think Taylor has a huge hit on their hands. I believe in years to come buyers of new and used Taylors will insist on the V brace feature. Of course, just as there is an old-time Martin contingent that hates the new MLO/PA neck, there will be Taylor ‘Originalists’ that want nothing but the old ways. But if you watch all the UTube vids, BT and company are behind this 1000% and there’s no going back. As the CEO says, “We are not a legacy company. We are an innovation company.”

And so they shall be.

[JohnW63]

Taylor's main business goal is one thing and one thing only: To sell more NEW guitars.

Same with Martin or Gibson or ANY guitar maker. If you don't think Martin came out with "reimagined" versions of their guitars or the Authentic lines to sell more NEW guitars, you are wearing blinders.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Shades of Blue

I personally think Taylor is taking a huge risk in deploying V class bracing throughout its entire lineup without at least beta testing one or two models for a year. Maybe they know their target market will blindly eat it up without questioning, but if it fails, it means retooling everything again down the road.

I think this was a business decision to save money somehow. Maybe V class saves wood or costs, or is more simple to produce. Something other than tone and sound has to be behind a ramp up to V class bracing this quickly.

Or maybe they just believe in their marketing this much...

One question that has been milling around in the back of my head is this..

What kind of player would the V bracing change effect most?

Can you see someone suddenly stand up at a Taylor Swift concert and yell, "I'm not putting up with this V class baloney!" and walk out?

Who the heck is really going to notice besides us guitar nerds with our left ear pressed against the upper bout?

In the grand scheme of things its a lot like holding a party at a football stadium and inviting one person. Can you hear the echo?
BTW I played one of those 414-r this weekend and actually preferred a 714ce with lutz. Nice guitars though, both of them.