Is it worth my time for some of those oddball keys?

[Cecil6243]

In my second go around on the guitar after not playing for a considerable amount of time I'm really getting into music theory, especially how it relates to the guitar. However I can't help thinking scales and chords in the almost never played major keys like F#, Db etc. is a waste of time I could improving my skills on better known scales, chords, etc.

Or should I plow ahead with them anyway?

[pickinray]

I think it depends on your goals and the type of music you want to play. If you want to play mainly folk/rock/country type of music, then you'll do just fine playing basic keys like G, C, D, etc. and using a capo if you want to play in other keys. If you are interested in classical or jazz, then you should probably learn to play in a wider range of keys and positions on the fretboard.

[donlyn]

Is it worth my time for some of those oddball keys?


Cecil6243,

I think it would be a good time to learn some new useful skills, like with the F#, transpose the key to play it in E, and then if you still want to play in F#, capo 2 is your huckleberry. And that's if you want to play along with a recording or with someone else who only knows it in F#, maybe on a different instrument, or sings in that key.

Life is too short to worry about these things.

Don
.

[zmf]

To a large degree, it depends on whether your playing is chord based. If chord based, don't punish yourself. Transpose or use a capo.

Making a guitar sound like music is tough enough. And music is all that counts.

[stevo58]

I disagree. If you are only playing in your bedroom, or never intend to play with anyone else, ok.

If you ever play with a singer, you will have to play in all sorts of keys. If you ever play with horns, you better be comfortable in F, Eb, Ab, and Bb. You might not have time to capo and adjust the tuning (which is ALWAYS necessary.)

Piano players consider “guitar keys” to be weird because they are all sharps. G,E,D...

I hadn’t played many years before I realized playing closed positions not only freed me completely, but made it much easier to understand theory. It was clear that, for example, there is no difference between G-C-D and Eb-Ab-Bb.

I didn’t own a capo between the ages of 16 (when I figured it out) and 55 (when I needed a 12-string electric for a band I was in). Now I use a capo when appropriate - which means when I want the sound of open strings. It’s a tool like everything else.

In my opinion, sticking to those keys limits your ability to play with other people. But that may be your plan.

Same goes for scales. If you avoid open string notes, there’s no difference between D and Db except the starting point. Learn scale patterns, not scales.
Steven

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

In my second go around on the guitar after not playing for a considerable amount of time I'm really getting into music theory, especially how it relates to the guitar. However I can't help thinking scales and chords in the almost never played major keys like F#, Db etc. is a waste of time I could improving my skills on better known scales, chords, etc.

Or should I plough ahead with them anyway?

I have been playing for over fifty years. I never worked on practising scales much but I kinda picked up the the patterns across the strings.

Sometimes we simply want to make music, and sometimes (speaking for myself) I like to explore aspects of the theory.
For instance I found "harmonising the Scale a challenging concept, and so I designed a spreadsheet to work it out, and found it illuminating.

I have also made diagrams of all the more frequently used scales - Standard, Pentatonic major, minor and "blues" (one extra note).

The best way is usually your own way.

[stanron]

There are 'movable' patterns for all scales. Learn a pattern for a scale in, say, F and you move it up one fret and you are playing it in F#. Learn it in G, move it down one fret and you are playing it in F#. You don't have to learn awkward keys if you learn movable patterns.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

In my second go around on the guitar after not playing for a considerable amount of time I'm really getting into music theory, especially how it relates to the guitar. However I can't help thinking scales and chords in the almost never played major keys like F#, Db etc. is a waste of time I could improving my skills on better known scales, chords, etc.

Or should I plow ahead with them anyway?

IMO, no. Not unless you're planning on getting into jazz, or working with singers (and you don't like using capos...)

I.e., if I see anything in F# major, I know how to play the F# major scale and all the chords in that key, and I know all the notes.
But I think of it (and see it on the fretboard) as E major 2 frets up, or as G major 1 fret down (or even as F major 1 fret up). Or as C major on fret 6. I might not use a capo, but I work with the familiar CAGED movable chord shapes.

Likewise, for Db major, I see it as C 1 fret up or D one fret down. If I'm not playing jazz, I'd probaly put a capo on fret 1 and pretend I'm in C. (Jazzers are snobbish about capos; it would be matter of pride to not use a capo.)

The really important thing is to know all your chord shapes, and how the scales fit around them. There only five major chord shapes, and only three minor chord shapes. All 12 of each kind are based on those. You need to know the fretboard well enough to place root notes for any shape.
E.g., if you ask me to play an F# major scale, my fingers will go there in a second or less. Probably to this pattern as first choice:

-----------------------------
-------------6-7---------------
---------6-8-------------------
---6-8-9------------------------
-9----------------------------
-----------------------------

I can play it in a second too. I can tell you the notes, of course, but I see the positions (relative to a chord shape, C in this case) before I even think of the note names.

[NormanKliman]

One good thing about unusual keys is that open strings will have a different harmonic relationship to chords than what you’re used to.

[rllink]

In the past I would have said that I don't spend time learning things I will never use but I may have to change that opinion in the future. I found that there were a lot of gaps in my guitar playing that are holding me back so I have started guitar lessons and I put myself into the hands of my teacher. Whatever he wants me to learn, I'm going to learn it.

[archerscreek]

Originally Posted by stanron

There are 'movable' patterns for all scales. Learn a pattern for a scale in, say, F and you move it up one fret and you are playing it in F#. Learn it in G, move it down one fret and you are playing it in F#. You don't have to learn awkward keys if you learn movable patterns.

This is what I do. I have the fretboard memorized and all of the movable patters. I can play and improvise in any key. It’s worth the time and effort to learn.

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

In my second go around on the guitar after not playing for a considerable amount of time I'm really getting into music theory, especially how it relates to the guitar. However I can't help thinking scales and chords in the almost never played major keys like F#, Db etc. is a waste of time I could improving my skills on better known scales, chords, etc.

Or should I plow ahead with them anyway?

Only if you're planning a career as a musician in a Broadway pit band.

Mickey "Learn This In All Twelve Keys" Baker has probably turned more people off playing guitar than anyone in history.

(By the way, there's more than 12 keys.)

[Cobby]

I would say, at least learn all of the chords. Even if you're not playing in one of the less common keys, the chords will pop up from time to time. Like if you're playing "Peggy Sue" in G, you'll have to handle that Eb in the bridge.

Also, it's fairly common for songs to modulate up a half-step. That'll almost always put you in a less-common key even if you start in a familiar key. (King of the Road, for instance) I suppose you could skip the modulation or quickly slide the capo up, but better to be able to handle it, I'd say.

I'd also recommend learning most of the chord extensions and alterations (6, sus4, sus2, 9, add 9, 7, M7). A lot of fairly simple music still uses these. These are the notes you'll often be using for hammer-ons and pull-offs. Also, depending on the style of music of course, but even if it's not jazz it's surprising how often one encounters diminished 7 and augmented chords as well.

Originally Posted by NormanKliman

One good thing about unusual keys is that open strings will have a different harmonic relationship to chords than what you’re used to.

As an example - the I, IV and V chords in the key of B have their dominant sevenths on the open lower three strings. B (seventh is A), E (seventh is D), F# (seventh is E). That's why I play the Mamas and Papas song "Creeque Alley" using key of B chord shapes. Those open-string 7ths are a big help to allow me to play the bass line while also strumming chords in the gaps.

[Mr. Jelly]

Learn it all in one key. Then two keys. Etc. Leave F# until last.

[Gordon Currie]

I'll also advocate for learning the moveable aspects. Especially since you are also focusing on music theory. These both can reinforce each other powerfully.

But it really comes down to your GOALS. Doing all this is an extra chunk of time upfront. It WILL take away from time spent on other aspects.

If you are aiming towards playing singer-songwriter/country/some pop/some rock, then you might not NEED to do this ever.

However, if your goal is to play more sophisticated music, or to be able to play with others in a wide range of situations, or play many different styles, then this could be unbelievably valuable.