Simple Taylor V-Class "test" / compare?

[00045]

I was at the Taylor Roadshow at my dealer and had the chance to play the new V-braced guitars. And we compared them to the current X-braced Taylors. I am not a Taylor guy when it comes to 6-strings and don't own one. But I love their 12-strings and just got my custom order 856c this January.

From the V-braced Taylors there was one that really stood out for me, the Builder's Edition K14ce (Koa/ Sitka). But would I sell my X-braced guitar? Or if I would own Taylor 6-strings, would I replace them with the V series? No, they are different alright, but don't make the others obsolete.
The comparison with the car vs horse-buggy or smart phone vs cell phone is not a good one. The V series will not take over the guitar world, but it's a great addition and I could see myself purchasing one of these BE K14ce. It's the first 6-string Taylor guitar I would like to own.
I am looking forward to checking out the first Taylor 12 string with V-bracing, I am sure they will come.

[ClayDots]

Originally Posted by 00045

The comparison with the car vs horse-buggy or smart phone vs cell phone is not a good one. The V series will not take over the guitar world, but it's a great addition ...

Actually in retrospect it's compressed and *looks* like the car took over and the smart phone took over quickly, however they were only coexisting additions for a long time and only took over in time after proving themselves as what they became.

Can't say if the V-Class will do that or not ... 10 years from now will all new guitars be using it? Too early to tell. Lots of opinions though huh?

It was a tough decision ... the K14ce is sweet, love the look, same dough. I prefer the bottom and top of Rosewood/spruce vs. the mids of Koa. AND, with the V-Class the 914ce is un-scooped ... at least the data let me conclude, and it is playing out that way (pun intended). Is this what you heard when you played them?

The finish all over the K14 is the silent satin which is good for mic'd recording but I picked up somewhere not so much for wear and tear and maintenance of "normal" playing and performance. A beauty though. What was your impression? Never played one, only heard recordings, and it does sound nice. Now the 614ce and 814ce are here and I bet very nice.

BTW, can't wait to see how the 12 string banter goes down? That's a lot of waves!

[N+1]

In these debates there seem to be two polarised opinions about Taylor motives, broadly stated thus:

A: Taylor want to improve their guitars.
B: Taylor want to make money.

But they aren't mutually exclusive. Is the purpose of a merchant to make a profit for himself, or to supply the goods we need? Well, both, of course. If he doesn't supply the goods, he can't make a profit. If he doesn't make a profit, he can't survive, so he can't supply the goods.

I don't see why we have to take sides. Taylor make some very fine guitars, and they tell us when and why they make different ones, hoping to make a profit. That's all right and proper, isn't it?

[Of course it would be different if their claims about V-bracing were demonstrably false: the sooner a snake oil merchant is found out, the better. But most people who play and listen to the new guitars seem able to hear a difference. I've heard the change in volume and sustain myself. Whether the difference is significant for any one individual is another matter - but that's the same for any guitar comparison.]

[lowrider]

Remember back when PC's were just coming out? Every other month a better one came out. Your old computer still did everything you bought it for and it was fine.

But nobody wanted to buy your old computer.

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by lowrider

Remember back when PC's were just coming out? Every other month a better one came out. Your old computer still did everything you bought it for and it was fine.

But nobody wanted to buy your old computer.

Nobody really wants to buy your old computer in 2018, either.

[00045]

Originally Posted by ClayDots

Actually in retrospect it's compressed and *looks* like the car took over and the smart phone took over quickly, however they were only coexisting additions for a long time and only took over in time after proving themselves as what they became.

Can't say if the V-Class will do that or not ... 10 years from now will all new guitars be using it? Too early to tell. Lots of opinions though huh?

It was a tough decision ... the K14ce is sweet, love the look, same dough. I prefer the bottom and top of Rosewood/spruce vs. the mids of Koa. AND, with the V-Class the 914ce is un-scooped ... at least the data let me conclude, and it is playing out that way (pun intended). Is this what you heard when you played them?

The finish all over the K14 is the silent satin which is good for mic'd recording but I picked up somewhere not so much for wear and tear and maintenance of "normal" playing and performance. A beauty though. What was your impression? Never played one, only heard recordings, and it does sound nice. Now the 614ce and 814ce are here and I bet very nice.

BTW, can't wait to see how the 12 string banter goes down? That's a lot of waves!

I am sure it was a tough decision for you. I happened to visit my dealer without knowing there is the Taylor Roadshow. The Taylor guys were setting up and it was just another customer, the Taylor rep, one of the dealer's stuff and myself. It was about two hours before the whole show started. We were checking out all the new
V-series and I always came back to the K14ce. I really liked the way it sounded, felt and played. Actually the Taylor rep (pretty good player) felt the same way, he told me he already ordered a K14ce for himself. I am foremost a fingerpicker when I play acoustics, I play with bare fingers and I just loved the way this guitar responded. Again, hard to explain but I really liked that K14. I didn't care much for that satin "silent" (great marketing name ) finish. I like the shiny finish.

In general we guitar players are quite conservative and I doubt Martin/ Gibson/ Collings etc will go away from the X bracing. But it would turn the guitar world around if they would add V-bracing to their catalog.
I asked the Taylor rep about the 12-strings getting V-bracing, he didn't say but his smile said a lot. I'm looking forward to check out a Koa/Sitka 12-string

[MartyGraw]

Putting aside sales and profitability, I am guessing another factor for Taylor is the ease of their factory workers to assemble guitars in a more precise, accurate and consistent manner that results in a better and more consistent product. When throwing rocks at a piano, increasing the odds of the rocks striking the right chord.
Speaking for myself, I am sticking to guitars made by trained luthiers, not assembly line workers. I want the rocks to always hit the right chord.

[Jambi]

Originally Posted by ClayDots

So I bought a 914ce with V-Bracing. Have it a week. Just a beautiful and great sounding guitar, no doubt.

You know, when the automobile came out, there were people who hated it and couldn't find where to put the hay! They continued to buy horse and buggy until not.

Same thing with smart phones. (I remember this, not the horse and buggy).

If you own a previous year, you will by human nature justify and love it. You're familiar, they sound and play fantastically, and you spent $4000 on it! This is nearly fact. (The 614, 714, and 814 are now out.)

The new approach is not intended to kill the value of all previous years, nor drive those owners to unload their guitar for the new one.

Either Taylor is a bold faced liar, just flat out spreading total crap, or, it's good. Why would the numero uno, make the corporate decision to spread crap ... they were doing great, no need for desperation on any level.

Come on folks. It is better, within the intended scope. When you're ready for a new guitar, you'll consider it. You're x brace is super nice. Don't sweat it.

I can tell you my new guitar is also super nice. It just sounds great. I find that the notes in chords up and down the neck are very much in tune, and I checked with a chromatic tuner, not that it's precise nor sensitive enough to discern the harmonics per se.

Also, notes and chords seem to ring on quite long, everywhere on the neck similarly.

The "test":
I did my best to strum the six strings standard tuning and make them ring as long as I could. Harder softer, neck, bridge, just looking for the best I could get. Seems to max out at about 20 seconds to the last little bit.

Not scientific but easy to do. Maybe we'll see a trend if other do this.

BTW, I use Elixir Custom Lights, .11 to .52.

Well that settles it, my guitar and all others that came before this epiphany of luthiery are literal garbage now. I'd throw my x-braced monstrosity on the bonfire except I'm afraid it will sully the good flames. /s


In all seriousness, I'm very happy that you enjoy your new guitar. Your opinion has no bearing on how much I enjoy mine, however.

[ctvolfan]

You will need to translate the page.

http://www.gitaarnet.nl/forum/showth...-X-Y-Z-bracing

[FOG01]

Originally Posted by ClayDots

Sorry, very arguable. Buy new, yes, unload previous, no. The secondary market is critical to brand and new revenue. The last thing they want is a dive in resale value.

And this will not happen because while the improvement is monumental in marketing, it is merely incremental in performance ... the 2017 914ce is a fine instrument that is (obviously) arguably as good.

People emote in binary, good or bad. It's good and bad, or a mix of both.

Just because they want to be successful, doesn't mean they have nefarious motives. That does happen, but not a lasting strategy ... we as a market are efficient.

They have a good idea, yes it's good. AND they want to make money with it. But they also want their brand and lives to be good. It's all ok, not mutually exclusive. (They are guitar people, not stock brokers!)

Great time to get a 2017 model ... good deal, but don't expect it to be "dumped" for you ... too good an instrument!

Allow me to respond. I don't believe for a second they have nefarious motives and never said they did. They are a company, which I happen to be a big fan of, but the bottom line is the bottom line.

I also have no doubt they truly believe they have improved their product and perhaps they have, though to what extent I am admittedly not qualified to answer. There are so many other variables that can affect how a guitar sounds, I'm a little skeptical, but it's a healthy skepticism. I've said before I think the NT neck is/was a bigger deal, because it can be clearly demonstrated exactly what it improves.

Taylor only exists by selling NEW guitars. Everything else, warranties, customer service, conservation efforts, only continue as long as the company can turn a profit. Yes, even good (guitar) people have to make money and I don't begrudge them for it.

Resale is a consideration when buying, I know. For me, when I first started it was a greater concern in case I decided to quit and wanted to recoup some of my investment. Once I got past that point, I was sucked in far more about buying a guitar that I was excited about. Resale is a minor concern but doesn't excite me. A 914ce braced either way does and sadly, I agree with you. They will not be dumped price wise.

One last thing, just poking fun mind you.

People emote in binary, good or bad. It's good and bad, or a mix of both.

Good, bad, or a mix... Isn't that 3?

[FOG01]

Originally Posted by wooglins

Obviously innovation leads to improved profit if successful, the question is would you rather a company repackage the same thing and call it new (The traditional company) or actually improve the product through innovation. Both may yield continued profits which is desired?

Folks argued for ten years about the NT neck. Now they will argue about bracing for 10 more. God willing I will be around to mention it in ten years.

Funny how no one argued about 3.5 mil finish. Surprised that was not contentious.

It is odd how change is perceived. I love me a silky smooth v12 engine but funny how a Tesla is faster in nearly all scenarios by a giant margin. They won't even let most race it at the drag strip. Arguments are raging on those forums as well.

In the end it would appear appear V-Bracing brings the sustain and tonal balance from 12-fret small body guitars to larger instruments.

The good news is there is room for both approaches and that will satisfy both sides of the market.

You clearly have much more experience with all this than me, so I will not try to bedazzle you with my 3 or so years of acoustic guitar knowledge.

Full disclosure, it's all new to me, relatively speaking. I don't begrudge Martin's marketing methods anymore than I do Taylor's. They are both trying to sell guitars. If it sounds good, it is good. And I love the sounds even I can make with a guitar.

[wooglins]

Originally Posted by ctvolfan

You will need to translate the page.

http://www.gitaarnet.nl/forum/showth...-X-Y-Z-bracing

That diagram is different from the Taylor design, and either way it was just a diagram in a guitar forum with no actual physical design work performed. It is also just a diagram with a shape with no details concerning bridge design and other very specific details that are contained in the Taylor patent. Sorta like an idea on a napkin. You actually have to submit the idea on the napkin to a patent agency in the proper format for it to have any real bearing. Folks used to say if you have an idea mail it to yourself as proof it was your idea, but patents don't really work like that.

The Taylor design stops just below the sound hole whereas the diagram pulled the frame to beyond the sound hole at the fretboard.

What has been missed and perhaps Taylor should have shared was Andy has been working on this for four years with very large amounts of building and testing of different designs to come to the final product.

Taylor design

Notice the numbered markings, these reference details from the patent which are details explanations, not just a simple redline image.

The link for this is at https://patents.google.com/patent/US...-LISTUG%2c+INC.




Sketch from forum

[bostosh]

"But it would turn the guitar world around if they would add V-bracing to their catalog"
who is doing the first copy in their shop?

Does taylor have a worldwide lock because of the utility patent?
nobody can use this ?
they have a powerhouse atty company who did the patent, read it some time.

"But it would turn the guitar world around if they would add V-bracing to their catalog"

[ctvolfan]

Originally Posted by wooglins

That diagram is different from the Taylor design, and either way it was just a diagram in a guitar forum with no actual physical design work performed. It is also just a diagram with a shape with no details concerning bridge design and other very specific details that are contained in the Taylor patent. Sorta like an idea on a napkin. You actually have to submit the idea on the napkin to a patent agency in the proper format for it to have any real bearing. Folks used to say if you have an idea mail it to yourself as proof it was your idea, but patents don't really work like that.

The Taylor design stops just below the sound hole whereas the diagram pulled the frame to beyond the sound hole at the fretboard.

What has been missed and perhaps Taylor should have shared was Andy has been working on this for four years with very large amounts of building and testing of different designs to come to the final product.

Taylor design

Notice the numbered markings, these reference details from the patent which are details explanations, not just a simple redline image.

The link for this is at https://patents.google.com/patent/US...-LISTUG%2c+INC.




Sketch from forum

I agree with everything you said. I just wanted to point out that the idea has been out there before. I don't care either way. Just trying to add a little bit to the conversation. An idea is no good unless you actually act upon it.

[ClayDots]

Originally Posted by N+1

In these debates there seem to be two polarised opinions about Taylor motives, broadly stated thus:

A: Taylor want to improve their guitars.
B: Taylor want to make money.

But they aren't mutually exclusive. Is the purpose of a merchant to make a profit for himself, or to supply the goods we need? Well, both, of course. If he doesn't supply the goods, he can't make a profit. If he doesn't make a profit, he can't survive, so he can't supply the goods.

I don't see why we have to take sides. Taylor make some very fine guitars, and they tell us when and why they make different ones, hoping to make a profit. That's all right and proper, isn't it?

[Of course it would be different if their claims about V-bracing were demonstrably false: the sooner a snake oil merchant is found out, the better. But most people who play and listen to the new guitars seem able to hear a difference. I've heard the change in volume and sustain myself. Whether the difference is significant for any one individual is another matter - but that's the same for any guitar comparison.]

Spot on.

You can replace ANY other guitar maker in your A. B. and still true. Has to be.