Questions on improving intonation (tone)

[Otterhound]

Originally Posted by redir

Again, the nut is just another fret

Boy , do I know some people that would argue with you to the death on this one .
Personally , I don't care , but I gotta ask .
If the nut is just another fret , why isn't the zero fret called a nut ?
Why isn't a fretboard with a nut called a zero fret ?
Why must you add a fret where the nut would typically be in order to have zero fret neck ?
Yeah , I know .........

[bausin]

>> ... if you get buzz when flattening out the relief it's not because you didn't set the nut up last in the process of doing a set up, it's because it's too low!

You still seem to be saying that the nut slot height and amount of relief are not related while at the same time admitting that they are.

If they are not related then you could cut the slots with any relief and then either increase or decrease the relief without ever buzzing or having the action unnecessarily high. Clearly, this is not true.

That's why your "perfect" setup is not perfect. You cut the nut slots, then add relief, which increases the 1st fret action. That means you could cut the slots deeper.

When you add relief, you increase the action. When you take relief out, you decrease the action. Your method of cutting the slots with a flat neck is "safer", since it should never buzz with any positive relief. But it is not optimal/perfect since the slots could be deeper to improve the action.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by bausin

If they are not related then you could cut the slots with any relief and then either increase or decrease the relief without ever buzzing or having the action unnecessarily high. Clearly, this is not true..

Actually the first part of your quote is finally correct.

Cutting a nut to the correct height is the simplest part of setting a guitar up, as was suggested earlier, if a nut is cut correctly it will not cause first fret buzz regardless of how much relief or backbow is dialed in as it will fret out further down the neck, if you get first fret buzz it’s simple, you cut the nut too low.

If after 4 pages and 8 days later of back and forth this concept is still foreign, seek local luthier to show you how we do it.

Steve

[redir]

Originally Posted by Otterhound

Boy , do I know some people that would argue with you to the death on this one .
Personally , I don't care , but I gotta ask .
If the nut is just another fret , why isn't the zero fret called a nut ?
Why isn't a fretboard with a nut called a zero fret ?
Why must you add a fret where the nut would typically be in order to have zero fret neck ?
Yeah , I know .........

If so then why isn't a fretboard called a nutboard?

[redir]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Actually the first part of your quote is finally correct.

Cutting a nut to the correct height is the simplest part of setting a guitar up, as was suggested earlier, if a nut is cut correctly it will not cause first fret buzz regardless of how much relief or backbow is dialed in as it will fret out further down the neck, if you get first fret buzz it’s simple, you cut the nut too low.

If after 4 pages and 8 days later of back and forth this concept is still foreign, seek local luthier to show you how we do it.

Steve

It's kind of funny too because I really had it in my head for so long the same way that bausin did and even argued the same points till... The light bulb went off!

I don't mean any disrespect or to belittle, I hope that doesn't come out that way. But it's a tricky but simple understanding once you see it you will never unsee it. I think it was a post that John Arnold made years ago on another forum that flipped me, and that was after 20 years of thinking this way.

Again the mantra is, the nut is just another fret

[Otterhound]

Originally Posted by redir

If so then why isn't a fretboard called a nutboard?

I wouldn't fret that .

[bausin]

>> Again the mantra is, the nut is just another fret

I have no problem with that statement.

It's the part that, when you bend the neck into a curve, you think the geometry hasn't changed.

[D. Churchland]

Originally Posted by bausin

>> Again the mantra is, the nut is just another fret

I have no problem with that statement.

It's the part that, when you bend the neck into a curve, you think the geometry hasn't changed.

I'm going to give you some advice you should take.

Go see a luthier

[bausin]

>> I'm going to give you some advice you should take.
Go see a luthier

Please stop with the condescending posts.
This is not rocket science, and I used to be a rocket scientist.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by bausin

>> I'm going to give you some advice you should take.
Go see a luthier

Please stop with the condescending posts.
This is not rocket science, and I used to be a rocket scientist.

Its not being condescending at all, clearly you do not get the principle, no big deal, seeing a luthier will allow this to suddenly become crystal clear because its not being communicated to you vee an internet forum but in person and shown in person, sometimes this is required to convey a message

As far as its not rocket science and you use to be one,

So what, completely irrelevant to lutherie,

(Self promotion about to happen - feel free to skip)isn’t everyone a rocket scientist, I am a Qualified and Certified Jet engine mechanic, Qualifications in Engineering (my specialty - Aviation), hold an Advanced Diploma in Non Destructive Testing and endorsed to certify any aircraft Australia Registered or FAA registered to fly if its been grounded for suspect damage should it land here in Perth - Australia.

However, I am a luthier now and have been for a while, I repair musical instruments because this is what I enjoy doing.

But

Even with all these qualifications things escape me as well, I still cannot tell you what a noun, a verb, or any of those funny names you give things are. I cannot structure sentences / paragraphs and so on. I cannot tell the difference between there - their and they're (no matter how many times it is explained to me).

So being rocket scientist means nothing in lutherie.

Go see a local Luthier.

Steve (Put my Humble repairer shoes back on)

[redir]

Originally Posted by bausin

>> Again the mantra is, the nut is just another fret

I have no problem with that statement.

It's the part that, when you bend the neck into a curve, you think the geometry hasn't changed.

I've stated several times already that is indeed true. But it has nothing to do with setting the nut slot heights equal to the frets in front of them.

Originally Posted by bausin

>> I'm going to give you some advice you should take.
Go see a luthier

Please stop with the condescending posts.
This is not rocket science, and I used to be a rocket scientist.

I think it's luthier Alan Carruth, who frequents this forum a lot that said, 'this is not rocket science, it's harder'

Of course he's referring more to the acoustics of the guitar but it's a funny line none the less.

[John Arnold]

I have never had an issue with setting the nut height before adjusting relief, and I have been doing this full-time for 34 years. I check nut height by placing a thin straightedge in the nut slot and on the second fret, and look for minimal clearance over the first fret. Works every time.
In my experience, the only way to get in trouble is to measure the action at the first fret when adjusting the nut. In that case, if you have high action and high relief, setting the action low at the first fret will result in a nut height that is below the fret plane. Then when you reduce relief or lower the bridge, you will get buzzing on the open strings. That is the reason I never, ever measure first fret action. If the nut is set at the correct height and relief is reasonable (.004 to .010), action at the first fret is a constant.....it will always be 11% of the 12th fret action.