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  #46  
Old 05-23-2023, 11:57 AM
Jamolay Jamolay is offline
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Originally Posted by DCCougar View Post
Well, we know that we remember the past, but not the future, lol. More seriously, here's a pretty good answer to your question, but it takes a book -- by one of today's top physicists: From Eternity to Here: The Quest for the Ultimate Theory of Time [2010] -- Sean Carroll


Actually, we live in an age of precision cosmology. And regarding the age of the Universe, this has been pinned down by seven entirely independent methods to get to that figure.

To the extent that we understand the universe as we see it.

I do agree with you, but everything we observe is biased by our understanding of our methods. How do we know that we are observing the full picture and interpreting it correctly?
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  #47  
Old 05-23-2023, 12:02 PM
Dirk Hofman Dirk Hofman is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Except of course ironically some of the images from the Webb call the age and even the origin, into question ----juss sayin
I think the only conclusion that can be drawn is that---- what we do not know is exponentially more vast, than what we do
My understanding is that what's been called into question is the speed at which the first galaxies formed, not the age of the universe.

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sc...se-2023-02-22/
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  #48  
Old 05-23-2023, 02:10 PM
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My understanding is that what's been called into question is the speed at which the first galaxies formed, not the age of the universe.

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sc...se-2023-02-22/
Well that is one "theory" that the 6 galaxies in question that appear to have been larger than the Milky Way at only 1/2 billion years old (based on the current 13 + billion year time frame from the big bang ) so they may have formed much faster than previously thought possible. (IF the 13 + billion time frame is correct)

But another theory is that is these galaxies could also mean that the universe is older than previously thought ..

We just do not know

They mention this at about the 2:00 + mark
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  #49  
Old 05-23-2023, 02:15 PM
DCCougar DCCougar is offline
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I just believe you have no idea how this universe originated. now do ya?
Well, you're assuming an "origin." We do know that our visible Universe started expanding about 14 billion years ago. We don't know what was going on before that, or if there was a "before." Or as Sagan said, "Ten or twenty billion years ago, something happened -- the Big Bang, the event that began our universe. Why it happened is the greatest mystery we know. That it happened is reasonably clear."

And actually, at one second after that beginning, we DO have a good idea what was going on. It was all very hot and dense, and expanding and therefore cooling. In the first few minutes, it was hot enough to fuse the hydrogen nuclei into helium nuclei. (Those nuclei are obviously there, but their generation is still somewhat theoretical, and definitely technical.) But after those first few minutes it cooled enough so that fusion stopped. We know this because we know from experiments how hot it has to be for that fusion, and we know the resulting abundance of hydrogen and helium. After about 400,000 years (IIRC) it was cool enough for those nuclei to capture the speedy electrons, and the first atoms formed, AND the Universe became transparent. We can view this now as the cosmic microwave background. It took some more time for the first stars to form (via gravity), which generated the heavier elements and supernovas spread those elements throughout space. And here we are! (Oh, did I skip a step? )
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  #50  
Old 05-23-2023, 02:19 PM
DCCougar DCCougar is offline
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But another theory is that is these galaxies could also mean that the universe is older than previously thought ..

We just do not know
It can't be much older. The number is being refined and refined. As I mentioned, seven independent methods of estimating the age of the Universe all converge on around 14 billion years. (Not long ago, the best estimate was 13.8 billion.)
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  #51  
Old 05-23-2023, 02:21 PM
DCCougar DCCougar is offline
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They mention this at about the 2:00 + mark
BTW, Michio Kaku is a science sensationalist.
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  #52  
Old 05-23-2023, 02:30 PM
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BTW, Michio Kaku is a science sensationalist.
Catchy phrase . Does that mean he is wrong ? Even so seems to me other astrophysicists have noted it may require a rethink of age.

Then there is this
https://sci.esa.int/web/xmm-newton/-...we%20think.%22
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  #53  
Old 05-23-2023, 02:36 PM
Jamolay Jamolay is offline
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I think a key point mentioned in a post above is “the age of the visible universe“.

We have no way to measure what may (or may not) be beyond the visible universe. For all we know the Big Bang was just a tiny local phenomenon in a much vaster than vast greater universe.

We only think it is big, because we really are so small….
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  #54  
Old 05-23-2023, 03:08 PM
Dirk Hofman Dirk Hofman is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Well that is one "theory" that the 6 galaxies in question that appear to have been larger than the Milky Way at only 1/2 billion years old (based on the current 13 + billion year time frame from the big bang ) so they may have formed much faster than previously thought possible. (IF the 13 + billion time frame is correct)

But another theory is that is these galaxies could also mean that the universe is older than previously thought ..

We just do not know

They mention this at about the 2:00 + mark
Thanks for that. The reporter asks if it's time to re-write the age of the universe, and while Kaku says "we might have to rethink our theories on the creation of the universe" (or something like that) he then clarifies, and starts suggesting instead that they might be supermassive black holes, which is a hypothesis mentioned in the article I posted above.

Also mentioned here: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...rse-180981689/

I haven't seen anyone suggesting it's time yet to re-think the age of the universe. I've seen some...let's just say...less than credible sources on Twitter trying to sensationalize these findings and say "science was wrong!" to their own agendas, but all that does is betray a lack of understanding of what science actually is.
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  #55  
Old 05-23-2023, 04:52 PM
DCCougar DCCougar is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Catchy phrase . Does that mean he is wrong?
It means he exaggerates and sensationalizes.
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Even so seems to me other astrophysicists have noted it may require a rethink of age.

Then there is this
https://sci.esa.int/web/xmm-newton/-...we%20think.%22
OK, that's a good source, BUT, as it says in its first sentence:
"An analysis of 13.5 thousand million-year-old X-rays, captured by ESA's XMM-Newton satellite, has shown that either the Universe may be older than astronomers had thought or that mysterious, undiscovered 'iron factories' litter the early Universe."
The X-rays in question are coming from APM 8279+5255, which is a quasar, that is, a young galaxy, and it has considerably more iron than expected, which suggests it must be older than previously thought.... or there's a source of more iron than we figured.

So where is this iron coming from? Prior to the formation of early galaxies, the iron must come from the earliest exploding stars, which create iron at the end of their life cycle. It has long been thought that the earliest stars must be much more massive than later stars due to the higher density of certain regions way back in time. [Edit to add: More massive stars live and die much more quickly.) The article makes a brief mention of this possibility:
"In the shorter term, ESA is launching INTEGRAL, a gamma-ray-detecting satellite, in October 2002. It will observe exploding stars to study the formation of chemical elements and may explain the anomalous iron observations."
These first stars have yet to be observed or measured, and they are indeed one of the as yet unsolved problems in astrophysics. But I'm thinking that they will provide the answer here as opposed to significantly extending the age of our Universe.
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Last edited by DCCougar; 05-23-2023 at 04:58 PM.
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  #56  
Old 05-23-2023, 05:19 PM
DCCougar DCCougar is offline
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...As someone with two degrees in science as well as spending 8 additional years studying medicine and surgery, I find it just as "impossible" for evolution to come close to explaining the intricacies of the human or animal bodies.
Well, this is just an argument from incredulity, but still, I'm surprised with all that good education that you have perhaps missed Stephen Jay Gould's books and essays.

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The biochemical reactions happening, the nervous system with various receptors and neurotransmitters... How many billions and billions of years it would take for each one of these genetic mutations.... The deeper you go and the more we learn in medicine makes it even more difficult for me to understand how it all happened with random mutations.
Yes, it's mind-boggling amazing, but as Dirk mentioned, it's not just a matter of "random mutations." Natural selection is extremely powerful, and as Gould loves to point out, it's not just a matter of selecting the most fit. Reproductive success is also a major factor. Consider the peacock. The male's huge tail must detract from its survival fitness, yet it works to the male's reproductive advantage. As Gould says:
"Our world overflows with peculiar, otherwise senseless shapes and behaviors that function only to promote victory in the great game of mating and reproduction. No other world but Darwin's would fill nature with such curiosities that weaken species and hinder good design but bring success where it really matters in Darwin's universe alone -- passing more genes to future generations."
Then there are also points made by Stuart Kaufman in his book "At Home in the Universe."
"Without [natural selection], we reason, there would be nothing but incoherent disorder. I shall argue... that this idea is wrong. For, as we shall see, the emerging sciences of complexity begin to suggest that the order is not all accidental, that vast veins of spontaneous order lie at hand. Laws of complexity spontaneously generate much of the order of the natural world. It is only then that selection comes into play, further molding and refining. Such veins... have not been entirely unknown, yet they are just beginning to emerge as powerful new clues to the origins and evolution of life."
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  #57  
Old 05-23-2023, 05:28 PM
Dirk Hofman Dirk Hofman is offline
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@KevWind, here's an article from February which goes into a ton of readable detail on the topic of what Webb does and doesn't tell us at this point. It may be out of date at this point, but a good overview of what Webb (to that point) had and hadn't called into question.

https://www.wired.com/story/no-the-j...ken-cosmology/

I'm not saying it couldn't be the case that the universe is older than we thought. Any knowledge we have is subject to new evidence, and that's of course the power of science. Always questioning itself, always adding to the corpus of knowledge. But for me it would take more than supposition or the possibility of an older universe to say "We just don't know". There are multiple pieces of strong evidence to support the 13.8 billion year age...at this point. I think we need more to overturn the current model.

This resonates for me, from the linked article:

Quote:
Though they lack the heft to break the prevailing cosmological model, the JADES galaxies have other special characteristics. Hainline said their stars seem unpolluted by metals from previously exploded stars. This could mean they are Population III stars—the avidly sought first generation of stars to ever ignite—and that they may be contributing to the reionization of the universe. If this is true, then JWST has already peered back to the mysterious period when the universe was set on its present course.
Incredibly interesting topic. I'll never stop being amazed by the enormity of time and space. Just incomprehensible in any real sense. Truly "awesome".
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  #58  
Old 05-23-2023, 07:10 PM
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All I know is that time definitely moves faster the less of it that you have left.
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  #59  
Old 05-23-2023, 09:25 PM
DCCougar DCCougar is offline
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All I know is that time definitely moves faster the less of it that you have left.
To minimize this effect, you'll want to stay in the lowlands since a clock on top of a tall mountain moves relatively faster than a clock at the base of that mountain. (OK, the difference is barely detectable, but hey. )
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  #60  
Old 05-24-2023, 08:31 AM
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To minimize this effect, you'll want to stay in the lowlands since a clock on top of a tall mountain moves relatively faster than a clock at the base of that mountain. (OK, the difference is barely detectable, but hey. )
Shazamm , no wonder I have aged so quickly living at 8000 ft

Thats going to be my excuse from now on
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