TJ Thompson $$$$$

[Maryc-k]

It’s like musical chairs. Last one holding it when the market softens takes the financial hit.

I know someone who bought a Gibson F5 Loar for $250k at the top of the market.
He said he’d be lucky to get $135k now. The resale market is all dependent on buyers’ willingness and ability to pay the prices set by dealers.

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

Oh...I am sorry I missed your intended meaning...I should have guessed the sarcasm font was in play {;-)

To a great degree, this is the high end dealers like Carter's or Dream driving this train too. Pushing the envelope on pricing at the high end.

I guess if the dealers/sellers can find buyers at these pricing levels...more power to them...but still...at some point...


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Matthew Sarad]

I've played 3 OM 45s and touched one OM45 Deluxe.
One of them was great, but I played a 1930 OM 28 at Mass Street Music in 2016 that sounded far better.
The Somogyi I'm babysitting just shot up in potential value due to the $150k model at Carter Vintage

[Johnny_Boy]

John Moteleone was mentioned earlier in the thread (and learned that he is another builder that demands premium pricing). I am not into archtop guitars at all. But here is one at $135K, also at CarterVintage.


https://cartervintage.com/shop/monte...yktJYLjhdObRyE

[sinistral]

I will just add that, based on the cost of living in the US, Canada and Europe (where most of the luthiers I know live), in my opinion, $10 - $15k is not an unreasonable amount for a well-established luthier to charge for a guitar. If the market supports a higher amount for a luthier's work, more power to them.

TJ Thompson gave a talk at the Fretboard Summit in Chicago last summer that was aimed mainly at the attending luthiers, although there were quite a few of us regular folk in attendance. At one point the discussion turned to what luthiers charge for their work, and TJ's advice was (roughly) not to be shy about being properly compensated for one's time, skill, etc.

An interesting comparison is the custom bicycle world, in which only a select few framebuilders are able to charge $8 - $10k for a custom frame. The vast majority are in the $4 - $6k range, and production volumes for solo framebuilders are not that different from guitars.

[Jwills57]

I say more power to them all, the luthiers. If you can sell an instrument for $18,000, why not? I love guitars, especially luthier-built guitars, and if I had the money, I wouldn't hesitate to pay. It's still possible to find younger luthiers who are early in their careers and who will build you a beautiful guitar in the $4,500 price range. These are the guys-gals I'm drawn to. In the world of violins, violas, and cellos, $15,000 might just be the entry price for a decent bow, let alone a quality instrument. A cello from even a relatively newer maker might easily cost you $30,000 or more. So we are lucky with guitars, for sure.

[iim7V7IM7]

As I said in an earlier posting to this thread, if Paul H and team have mispriced the instrument, it will not sell. On the other hand, if they have priced it correctly, it will sell. This instrument has been listed for about 3-weeks and is still for sale. The two estate sale vintage Martins sold through Dream Guitars referenced in the thread sold instantly. If it is still there some months from now or the price has been reduced we shall see. As always, the market will answer this question.

TJ is best known as the #1 luthier in terms of pre-war Martin guitar restoration. Yes, he also builds instruments now mostly for his restoration clients. His instruments are honestly market place rarities with association with supreme vintage guitar knowledge, restoration techniques and gravitas. TJ is not known primarily as a custom builder. Paul's team is seeing where they can take it. They are fantastic marketeers of guitars as evidenced by this communities continued discussion about the instrument further publicising it.

[Maryc-k]

The buyers' pool for these guitars is very small. I have heard rumblings from some of the people I know who are close to TJ (who I was told offered to buy the guitar back from the owner) and who are part of this "pool." While many would love to buy the guitar, they won't. And not because they don't have the money.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by Maryc-k

The buyers' pool for these guitars is very small. I have heard rumblings from some of the people I know who are close to TJ (who I was told offered to buy the guitar back from the owner) and who are part of this "pool." While many would love to buy the guitar, they won't. And not because they don't have the money.

...something to do with setting an less than desirable "market comp" per chance?...or a little push back on Paul/DG attempting to massage the upper end of the price range on the ultra "elite carriage trade" instruments?


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Maryc-k]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

...something to do with setting an less than desirable "market comp" per chance?...or a little push back on Paul/DG attempting to massage the upper end of the price range on the ultra "elite carriage trade" instruments?


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

Let’s just say that TJ has a lot of supporters and friends. And the pushback on overarching of pricing on resale is becoming stronger.

[steveh]

Originally Posted by gitarro

But it is just getting crazy expensive with even newer luthiers asking for frankly amazing prices for their sophomore guitars, and young luthiers raising their prices because of some association or apprenticeship with a famous luthier. Now this trend of escalation of prices is reaching truly incredible heights, and frankly I am out of this kind of market...

A lot of sense in this great post by Gitarro.

So much of this is hype and marketing, and "flavour-of-the-month", and if you can ride that train then good luck to you but I, also, am out.

I've been drinking the Kool Ade for over a decade and had some very expensive instruments pass through. Many became "expensive" because I'd got in at the ground floor and the luthier then "took off", contingent on AGF exposure or a relationship with TNAG and the ilk. For me at least, that distorted my relationship with the instrument. Suddenly my 5K guitar is "worth" 20K and it's impossible to stop speculating on what others you could get if you sold = GAS etc.

A pal of mine was discussing a guitar from a (now well-known) luthier. The price was great - 3K. The following week he called to place his order but was told the price had doubled. Why? The luthier had just "signed" with a well-known dealership. He now had to incorporate the dealer's margins and taxes etc. While I understand that, ultimately the guitar became unaffordable for my friend.

I was speaking to a very well known nylon luthier recently who was bemoaning that fact that he's now only building for seasoned pros or well-heeled bedroom heroes, with his guitars well beyond the reach of what he described as "conservatory" players. There's no easy answer - he has to feed his family and why shouldn't he make a good living? I mentioned Rory Dowling's young player "bursary" as one possible solution. This chap keeps his prices as low as he can. The result? - a 6-year wait.

Happily, there is huge choice for those of us wanting a great guitar. Avoid hyped builders; seek out local and/or under-the-radar talent. One of my two steel-strings is the 15th by the builder, and its as good as most of the uber-expensive alternatives I've played. Or buy used and pitch for a sensible discount: "My guitar cost 20K so I'm selling for 18K" doesn't cut it.

Cheers,
Steve

[Richard Mott]

So many of the preceding posts about price, and market, and speculation are undoubtedly true. And they clearly inspire strong emotions: see how this thread has reached four pages in no time. But here’s a vote for stepping away from price-oriented discussions in favor of getting back to the instruments themselves—what makes them interesting or exceptional, innovative and beautiful. That’s the real strength and attraction of this forum. One person’s view …

[jmagill]

The market responds to demand. If enough people will not buy at a certain price point, the market will eventually adjust prices downward.

[Maryc-k]

I never thought I'd see a Brazilian Ryan at this price point again:

https://www.picknparlor.com/acoustic...an-nightingale

And it has been there for months.

[sinistral]

I suspect that these guitars are being listed on consignment, so the price is driven at least in part—if not a large part—by the seller. While not in the same category, this Collings dreadnought with Brazilian back and sides has been for sale by 30th Street Guitars in NY for three years, with no takers, at $9,500.

Left-handed 1994 Collings D2H BaA

When I spoke to the folks at the shop a while back, they said that the owner wasn’t negotiable, or very negotiable, on price (and the same owner has a few other left-handed acoustics for sale at the shop that haven’t sold in the same time period, including a Martin JC-40).

Even the handful of builders for whom the demand for their guitars far outstrips supply (and in many cases prices for secondhand instruments are higher than for new ones) aren’t exactly getting rich building guitars. Every luthier I’ve met at guitar shows or have gotten to know through a build process is in it for the love of the craft.

[Guitars44me]

“Even the handful of builders for whom the demand for their guitars far outstrips supply (and in many cases prices for secondhand instruments are higher than for new ones) aren’t exactly getting rich building guitars. Every luthier I’ve met at guitar shows or have gotten to know through a build process is in it for the love of the craft.”

Sinistral is right on in my experience! And if I could build instruments of the caliber around here I would be in my shop a LOT!

What a nice way to wake make the world a better place…

Go, Luthiers, Go

Paul