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  #31  
Old 05-02-2017, 04:52 PM
TheChicagoTodd TheChicagoTodd is offline
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There is absolutely a difference with Emerald woody tops! They sound totally better to my eyes!

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  #32  
Old 05-02-2017, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TheChicagoTodd View Post
There is absolutely a difference with Emerald woody tops! They sound totally better to my eyes!

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And there you have it!
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  #33  
Old 05-02-2017, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jdinco View Post
I think Ted's comments carry just as much weight, more exposure and more guitars to compare. Of course that may not be the answer you were looking for?? Either way, I suspect the difference would be pretty small.
The topic of conversation is "does a guitar sound the same with or without a wood veneer?" That limits the conversation to Emerald guitars only unless we choose to wander away from the conversation for various reasons. ONLY Emerald uses wood veneers currently.

BTW, I never referred to Ted at all. I referred to ALL comments--"posts"--plural. For some reason you seemed to be reading something extra into what I wrote.

If someone else has two current, identical Emeralds, with and without veneer, that they can sit down and play one after the other and then post in this thread---other than benderman57--I, of course, would personally be happy to give their comments equal weight with benderman57.
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  #34  
Old 05-02-2017, 05:11 PM
Kerbie Kerbie is offline
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Since I've got a woody on the way, I'm very interested in this thread. So, thanks to all of you who have offered comments and especially those who have played both. I look forward to hearing for myself in a few months.
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  #35  
Old 05-02-2017, 05:17 PM
mot mot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac View Post
If someone else has two current, identical Emeralds, with and without veneer, that they can sit down and play one after the other and then post in this thread---other than benderman57--I, of course, would personally be happy to give their comments equal weight with benderman57.
I have only compared my X20 Opus to non-Emerald guitars from CA to Taylor and so far I have found all others wanting. There were some that were close in sound and/or playability (but the X20 was superior ergonomically across the board). In other words I don't have anything to bring to this table but desire. Mine doesn't have the veneer, but to quote the good captain...
Quote:
I have one X20. It sounds great.
I think any version of the X20 will be good enough, so go with what your eyes and wallet think is best.
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  #36  
Old 05-02-2017, 06:00 PM
Matt_Adamas Matt_Adamas is offline
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I'd wager different strings would affect tone more than the wood veneer.

I've got an X-20 non-woody and I'm awaiting the arrival of an X-7 woody soon. I never gave the woody top a second thought in terms of altering the tone.
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  #37  
Old 05-02-2017, 06:16 PM
Kerbie Kerbie is offline
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I'm awaiting the arrival of an X-7 woody soon.
Matt,

I hope you'll tell us all about that X-7 woody when it arrives!
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  #38  
Old 05-02-2017, 06:33 PM
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Yo, The Mot:

I appreciate your generous offer to use my possible woody in your scientific analysis. However, I count my woody (if I get one) as a personal matter and not subject to dissection. I do wait with bated breath to hear the results of your stunning study. You have to wonder, how many people are willing to give up their woodies for public scrutiny?

Well, maybe the more experienced one. The show-offs who know how to play. They are pretty proud of their woodies and I think I would be, too, if just had one. I'm talking with Alistair now.
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  #39  
Old 05-02-2017, 07:56 PM
jdinaz jdinaz is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac View Post
The topic of conversation is "does a guitar sound the same with or without a wood veneer?" That limits the conversation to Emerald guitars only unless we choose to wander away from the conversation for various reasons. ONLY Emerald uses wood veneers currently.
Hey AC, Sorry if I misunderstood your post... I was referring to this comment made by Ted...."In any event, I've played a number of emeralds with and without the wood tops, including some discontinued models, and the veneer absolutely changes the tone. Think about it, how could it not?"

Nothing more. Take Care
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  #40  
Old 05-02-2017, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdinco View Post
Hey AC, Sorry if I misunderstood your post... I was referring to this comment made by Ted...."In any event, I've played a number of emeralds with and without the wood tops, including some discontinued models, and the veneer absolutely changes the tone. Think about it, how could it not?"

Nothing more. Take Care
No worries jdinco, I see no harm bringing in other examples (eventhough not exactly the sames as Emerald) as reference points for discussion purposes. Everyone here has different experiences and we share around in light that even the smallest aspect is not missed out regardless of whether the overall message appears irrelevant or not.
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  #41  
Old 05-03-2017, 03:23 AM
Alistair Hay Alistair Hay is offline
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Sean mentioned this thread to me and I thought it would be useful to bring some clarification to the table.
Firstly the veneers we use are very thin and are actually fused to the surface of the carbon during the moulding process. Under Vacuum the resin penetrates right into every pore of the veneer at the same time as it penetrates the carbon fibres and this stabilises the veneer and prevents future movement during temperature and humidity changes.
We alter the top structure slightly to balance out the extra veneer and keep the weight and stiffness the same as on an all-carbon guitar.
Now on the question of tone, yes there are some differences but they are subtle. If I were to do a blind test of 10 of my guitars I could hear subtle differences from one to the other, but If you asked me to choose which were carbon and which had a veneer I fear I would not be able to accurately make that call.
In general on a direct side by side test I would probably say that the woody is a bit warmer brought about by a reduction in some mid frequencies.
As someone mentioned earlier, string type would have a much more fundamental effect on tone than the veneer choice.
On the question of Opus and Artisan there is no difference as they are moulded exactly the same way using the same materials and there is the same type and amount of top coat finish applied but in the case of the textured Crystal Ice finish we just have a different method of application.
Also to clarify one last point, The mention of Gloss Vs Raw finish relates to CA Guitars not Emerald. We don't do a Raw carbon finish.

There will always be subtle differences between instruments even of the same model, but I think in the carbon world those differences are far smaller than in the wood world.

Im always glad to bring clarification to any questions you may have. Maybe we should start a thread of FAQ's and you guys can quiz me directly
Hope this helps
Alistair
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  #42  
Old 05-03-2017, 04:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistair Hay View Post
Sean mentioned this thread to me and I thought it would be useful to bring some clarification to the table.
Firstly the veneers we use are very thin and are actually fused to the surface of the carbon during the moulding process. Under Vacuum the resin penetrates right into every pore of the veneer at the same time as it penetrates the carbon fibres and this stabilises the veneer and prevents future movement during temperature and humidity changes.
We alter the top structure slightly to balance out the extra veneer and keep the weight and stiffness the same as on an all-carbon guitar.
Now on the question of tone, yes there are some differences but they are subtle. If I were to do a blind test of 10 of my guitars I could hear subtle differences from one to the other, but If you asked me to choose which were carbon and which had a veneer I fear I would not be able to accurately make that call.
In general on a direct side by side test I would probably say that the woody is a bit warmer brought about by a reduction in some mid frequencies.
As someone mentioned earlier, string type would have a much more fundamental effect on tone than the veneer choice.
On the question of Opus and Artisan there is no difference as they are moulded exactly the same way using the same materials and there is the same type and amount of top coat finish applied but in the case of the textured Crystal Ice finish we just have a different method of application.
Also to clarify one last point, The mention of Gloss Vs Raw finish relates to CA Guitars not Emerald. We don't do a Raw carbon finish.

There will always be subtle differences between instruments even of the same model, but I think in the carbon world those differences are far smaller than in the wood world.

Im always glad to bring clarification to any questions you may have. Maybe we should start a thread of FAQ's and you guys can quiz me directly
Hope this helps
Alistair
Thanks as always for ringing in Alistair! Great to hear your opinion about veneer vs. non-veneer Emeralds. Looking forward to getting my woody X20 Artisan!!!

Cheers!!
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  #43  
Old 05-03-2017, 04:56 AM
Long Jon Long Jon is offline
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Alistair's quite some CEO ain't he ?

I'm hoping Chris Martin may still join in and settle the "Martin neck woods clarification" discussion, over in the general section.
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  #44  
Old 05-03-2017, 07:53 AM
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Alistair Rocks! Thanks!
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  #45  
Old 05-03-2017, 08:18 AM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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Alistair, thanks for confirming my comments on this.

Jon, what exactly do you need from Chris that hasn't been answered? It has been explained by Martins wood buyer, as well as a number of Martin enthusiasts, Martin uses Genuine Mahogany for the necks, but reserves the right to substitute other woods like Spanish Cedar at their discretion. BTW, Spanish Cedar is what was used on all those vintage guitars selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars, so good stuff.
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