Can somebody give me a simple answer as to why you would sand the saddle?

[beninma]

Originally Posted by justonwo

This is only true if the saddle is extremely (and I mean extremely) low, so that there’s no significant break angle of the strings over the saddle.

I’ve received a lot of newly built guitars that required (not surprisingly) sanding of the saddle after the first few months. Lightly built guitars will almost always require adjustments in the first couple of years. In no case was there even a hint of change in the tone. People shouldn’t be afraid to lower the saddle if it’s needed. That’s what it’s there for. Most luthiers build these predictable adjustments into how they pitch the neck so that there’s plenty of saddle left once the guitar settles in.

Exactly.. and often the amount of material that you have to sand off the saddle to dramatically improve the action is so small you can't see it.

[ctvolfan]

Yes this makes perfect sense to me. I was trying to say that in my original post. It does seem like common sense that the nut height would affect fingering the frets more than the saddle height which is much further away from the neck.

Originally Posted by Jaden

That is correct. I edited my previous post to explain the nut slots should be adjusted first. The only reason I can think of to sand down the saddle is to lower the action further.

[ctvolfan]

Okay this is what I thought. Maybe I understood more about this than I thought I did.

Originally Posted by beatcomber

Simple answer:

The truss rod only controls the relative straightness of the neck by adjusting its curvature, it does not by itself enable consistently low action up and down the neck.

To get a proper set-up, the neck curvature (truss rod) and string height (bridge) have to be adjusted in tandem.

[ctvolfan]

I will definitely check this out. Thanks!

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

This is a very long read, but it’s excellent and everything you need to know about guitar set-up is in there. I recommend that you read it all, very carefully.

http://charlestauber.com/luthier/Res...May%202015.pdf

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by ctvolfan

Yes this makes perfect sense to me. I was trying to say that in my original post. It does seem like common sense that the nut height would affect fingering the frets more than the saddle height which is much further away from the neck.

It does. The holy trinity of playability. Height at the nut. Relief. Height at the saddle. The nut has a big effect on first position playability. So does relief. The saddle has more effect on the middle of the neck and higher. But it all plays a role, and a good setup addresses all three.

[Arthur Slowhand]

Surely, lowering or filing the nut lowers the strings at the nut end and lowering the saddle lowers the strings (slightly) at the higher registers - isn't that just simple geometry?

[ctvolfan]

So is it safe to say that the main reason somebody would sand the saddle is to get the action lower and that tone or volume a minor reason?

Edited. I see that intonation is a big reason to sand the saddle. That make sense.

Originally Posted by Jaden

Sanding down the saddle always results in loss of torque, power and tone, but is done to lower action, which should instead be done by lowering the nut slots first. Truss rod adjustment affects relief and influences how ‘soft’ the action feels - it has the side effect of altering the height of strings above the fretboard but it’s not it’s primary purpose.

[TBman]

I had sanded some of the saddles of my guitars down and thought I knew what I was doing, but after a few years of struggling a bit with my guitars I realized I didn't know what I was doing and decided to do it right.

I read up on set-ups and saw that the set-up is a three way reconciliation between the nut, saddle and neck relief. I bought nut files and a fret rocker. I like a flat neck, so the first thing I did was get rid of the relief. My thinking for adjusting the neck to zero relief was that I had to set to its "zero" state for the other two adjustments to be right. Then with the use of the tools I got the nuts in a good place and fortunately the saddles weren't too low from me sanding them down without knowing what I was doing. I found that I was happy with the results and didn't feel the need to add any relief. As a finger style player I really don't want neck relief.

Does this mean I now know what I am doing? No, but at least I'm closer.

When I pick up my guitars to play now I don't have to think about anything except the music.

Do I recommend doing what I did? No, take it to a good tech. The reason why I did my own is because I have 9 guitars and I felt I could do it. If I blew the first one, I would have taken it to a tech and brought the rest in over time to get tweaked.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by ctvolfan

So is it safe to say that the main reason somebody would sand the saddle is to get the action lower and that tone or volume a minor reason?

Edited. I see that intonation is a big reason to sand the saddle. That make sense.

No, that is not safe to say. There is no effect on tone, and you will find very, very few people who will take the position that lowering the saddle has any effect on tone whatsoever (unless the saddle is so low as to be practically flush with the top of the bridge). This is goofy internet lore.

[ctvolfan]

Thanks you summed this up very simply put.

Nut Slot height - affects action in the lowest frets
Truss Rod - affects neck relief, has the appearance of changing the relationship of the middle frets to the lower/upper frets
Saddle height/neck angle - affects the upper frets

Originally Posted by beninma

That's not at all a problem... more realistically the problem is people who go buy another guitar, or 5 more guitars, cause the one they have isn't setup right and for some reason it seems too hard/undesirable to get the setup dialed in.

It doesn't take a whole lot of time to "polish" one guitar so it plays perfectly. It's a lot less time & hassle than building a collection of guitars.

Posts like, "what guitar can I go buy that has a low easy to play action" are the problem. Just take the guitar you have and get it setup for a low easy to play action. Even if you go take a class and buy your own tools you'll end up spending less money than buying even a cheap asian guitar.

For the OP... saddles get sanded on the top differentially to change/fix intonation. Sometimes material is sanded evenly off the bottom of the saddle to lower the action at the upper frets.

Nut Slot height - affects action in the lowest frets
Truss Rod - affects neck relief, has the appearance of changing the relationship of the middle frets to the lower/upper frets
Saddle height/neck angle - affects the upper frets

If the Nut & truss rod are setup really well but the action is too high at the saddle it'll be noticeable when playing up the neck. It might not matter if you spend all your time strumming chords up in the first 5 frets. If you want to go play triads down by the 12th fret it's really noticeable.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by ctvolfan

So is it safe to say that the main reason somebody would sand the saddle is to get the action lower and that tone or volume a minor reason?

Hi civ-etc

Yes, that would be safe to say.

Another reason (just as important) is to shape the top surface of a saddle for the purpose of fine-tuning intonation (how in-tune the notes play).

That might consist of sanding and/or filing the top edge. Here is a picture of the saddle of my Olson. The luthier sculpted the top edge.

[DenverSteve]

Originally Posted by ctvolfan

So is it safe to say that the main reason somebody would sand the saddle is to get the action lower and that tone or volume a minor reason?

No. Tone has little, to nothing, to do with sanding the saddle. You asked for a simple answer. The simple answer is you sand the bottom of the saddle to lower the strings relative to the neck. That is the simple answer. You've had around 20 answers, around half of them are opinion and not accurate.

Don't touch your saddle until you've done a proper set up on the guitar or there will be a high probability that you will over-sand it and require a new one. There are dozens of threads herein that explain set ups and how/what to do to properly adjust action. Likewise, there are many articles on line that explain the same. I agree with the go back to ignorance is bliss and have a proper professional set up your guitar(s) so they play as easy as possible.

As we've advocated for herein forever - every guitar will benefit from a professional set up after purchase. Have it done correctly. I can do excellent set ups and still take my guitars to a professional who has - not only the experience and knowledge - but all the proper tools to do it correctly. Likewise, I can change the oil in my car and change tires but I take my car to a professional and have them done quickly, accurately and professionally.

[Arthur Slowhand]

Is it safe to say that some people are confusing sanding the overall underside of the saddle to lower the action, with selective sanding of the topside for intonation?

Sorry for the useless contribution... getting towards my 100th post and feeling a little giddy with excitement!

[ctvolfan]

Cool thanks!

Originally Posted by justonwo

No, that is not safe to say. There is no effect on tone, and you will find very, very few people who will take the position that lowering the saddle has any effect on tone whatsoever (unless the saddle is so low as to be practically flush with the top of the bridge). This is goofy internet lore.

[ctvolfan]

Yeah I have a tech I use and don't plan on messing with mine myself. I just really need to have a better understanding as to what makes the process work.

Originally Posted by TBman

I had sanded some of the saddles of my guitars down and thought I knew what I was doing, but after a few years of struggling a bit with my guitars I realized I didn't know what I was doing and decided to do it right.

I read up on set-ups and saw that the set-up is a three way reconciliation between the nut, saddle and neck relief. I bought nut files and a fret rocker. I like a flat neck, so the first thing I did was get rid of the relief. My thinking for adjusting the neck to zero relief was that I had to set to its "zero" state for the other two adjustments to be right. Then with the use of the tools I got the nuts in a good place and fortunately the saddles weren't too low from me sanding them down without knowing what I was doing. I found that I was happy with the results and didn't feel the need to add any relief. As a finger style player I really don't want neck relief.

Does this mean I now know what I am doing? No, but at least I'm closer.

When I pick up my guitars to play now I don't have to think about anything except the music.

Do I recommend doing what I did? No, take it to a good tech. The reason why I did my own is because I have 9 guitars and I felt I could do it. If I blew the first one, I would have taken it to a tech and brought the rest in over time to get tweaked.