Help!=Recording Microphones

[DesolationAngel]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

You have to keep in mind the context when you read about various engineer's methods. If you're mixing an acoustic with a lot of other instruments, mono makes perfect sense. Not sure I get the "pointless" aspect of the instrument, but I can get that it's simply not useful, and maybe even in the way, in typical rock/pop multi-track mix where the engineer wants to create their own artificial soundstage. For the type of music I record - solo fingerstyle guitar, it's extremely "pointfull" :-) It makes a huge difference, which is why virtually any solo guitar recording you hear will be in stereo.

Chap, I am fully aware of context, which is why I specifically wrote, "If the guitar needs to sit in a mix with other instruments then it might work better with a completely different sound to that which you might consider for a solo guitar performance..."

The 'pointless' aspect that some engineers talk about is the fact that an orchestra, dozens of feet wide, creates a usable stereo stage... a guitar, with a useable recording area of a couple of feet does not. I don't necessarily agree with that and, again, for solo stuff, I MUCH prefer to hear a well recorded guitar in stereo. (Don't shoot the messenger, I'm relating opinions of well known producers, engineers and recordists and their preferences... I don't assume that everyone on this forum is solely recording solo finger style guitar).

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by DesolationAngel

The 'pointless' aspect that some engineers talk about is the fact that an orchestra, dozens of feet wide, creates a usable stereo stage... a guitar, with a useable recording area of a couple of feet does not. I don't necessarily agree with that and, again, for solo stuff, I MUCH prefer to hear a well recorded guitar in stereo. (Don't shoot the messenger, I'm relating opinions of well known producers, engineers and recordists and their preferences... I don't assume that everyone on this forum is solely recording solo finger style guitar).

Sounds like we're on the same page. And I'm sure those engineers totally know what they're talking about, we just have to know their context - tho maybe some of them need to hear a stereo guitar recording :-). But very few people do solo guitar, here or anywhere else! It's practically unheard of :-)

[rick-slo]

As Doug said, solo guitar recordings are recorded by virtually every recording engineer in stereo to get a truer (and more satisfying) sound. Can't even remember hearing a mono recording of a solo guitar except perhaps ones recorded many decades ago. The guitar is a broad sound source and puts out a different sound from different areas of the guitar. Same with piano (and others), but to even a greater degree.

[DesolationAngel]

Now... to make Doug happy



So, the clip above, is not stereo (I mean it's stereo but two mono tracks centre panned). It's two tracks recorded with two different mics... A U47 tube type tube LDC (up the neck) and a KM184 SDC (pointed near the bridge). They are both going through a Pacifica mic pre, A/D through an Apogee and into Logic. They are both gain matched as near as possible... the track starts with the Phazer in bypass. At about the half way point, I start sweeping the phase dial on the Phazer. You can hear it 'in' at about the 22 second mark. I back it off near the end (and ignore the glitch at the end, I clipped off the end of the track).

The opening piece is 'thin' and as I dial up the phase alignment it becomes much fuller (in fact, too full, for me). But that 'thin' might be EXACTLY what I need if I'm mixing it in to a busy arrangement with drums 'n' bass 'n' all that... but... it might not. Now, I'm not saying I couldn't get that result with some judicious EQ and some other processing (and mic placement/replacement)... but that dial is awfully sweet

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by DesolationAngel

Now... to make Doug happy



So, the clip above, is not stereo (I mean it's stereo but two mono tracks centre panned). It's two tracks recorded with two different mics... A U47 tube type tube LDC (up the neck) and a KM184 SDC (pointed near the bridge). They are both going through a Pacifica mic pre, A/D through an Apogee and into Logic. They are both gain matched as near as possible... the track starts with the Phazer in bypass. At about the half way point, I start sweeping the phase dial on the Phazer. You can hear it 'in' at about the 22 second mark. I back it off near the end (and ignore the glitch at the end, I clipped off the end of the track).

The opening piece is 'thin' and as I dial up the phase alignment it becomes much fuller (in fact, too full, for me). But that 'thin' might be EXACTLY what I need if I'm mixing it in to a busy arrangement with drums 'n' bass 'n' all that... but... it might not. Now, I'm not saying I couldn't get that result with some judicious EQ and some other processing (and mic placement/replacement)... but that dial is awfully sweet

Yep, here you are taking a totally mono signal and creating some channel separation with the Phazer. Not surprisingly the bass picks up a bit. You might also get a good result by panning in for a narrow focus, but not all the way thus more likely improving the low end also.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by DesolationAngel

Now... to make Doug happy

Cool, I get what you're trying to do now. Phase aligning multiple mics being mixed into mono with something like the Phazer makes perfect sense. Have you tried just using one mic? I'm not clear on what the 2nd mic is adding. Also, have you tried recording in stereo? I'd expect (assuming your intended use for the track makes sense in stereo, as we've already kicked around), that 2 mics in stereo would sound much better yet.

[DesolationAngel]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Yep, here you are taking a totally mono signal and creating some channel separation with the Phazer. Not surprisingly the bass picks up a bit. You might also get a good result by panning in for a narrow focus, but not all the way thus more likely improving the low end also.

There is no panning, no channel separation (unless I'm entirely missing what you mean by channel separation). Both tracks are centre panned. If I sum that track to mono it sounds exactly the same, with the same change in tonality.

Maybe I'm not following?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by DesolationAngel

There is no panning, no channel separation (unless I'm entirely missing what you mean by channel separation). Both tracks are centre panned. If I sum that track to mono it sounds exactly the same, with the same change in tonality.

Maybe I'm not following?

Im not sure what Rick means there. What I assume is happening is that you have 2 mics that arent quite in phase, mixed to mono. As you adjust the Phazer, you bring the mics closer in phase at the lower frequencies, eliminating some of the phase cancellation, so you get a fatter sound, all in mono. You should also be able to (maybe) get an even fatter sound with one mic, by just not having phase cancellation to start with.

[DesolationAngel]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Cool, I get what you're trying to do now. Phase aligning multiple mics being mixed into mono with something like the Phazer makes perfect sense. Have you tried just using one mic? I'm not clear on what the 2nd mic is adding. Also, have you tried recording in stereo? I'd expect (assuming your intended use for the track makes sense in stereo, as we've already kicked around), that 2 mics in stereo would sound much better yet.

I have done all of those ^^ Truth be told, in an actual track (i.e. not a test track) I wouldn't use both mic sources at the same level. I'd use the LDC omni as the main track for the fullness and some 'air' and then I'd ride the fader up to add a bit of bite from the SDC.

In stereo I've done spaced pairs, X/Y, ORTF and Blumlein... all with varying degrees of success... but I don't often make unaccompanied solo guitar tracks so the stereo doesn't necessarily always work for me. One thing I do quite like is taking a mono guitar track and then a second mono guitar track that is doubling the first but recorded with a Nashville strung guitar. I might not spread that too wide but I do like the effect sometimes... like a separated 12 string.

[DesolationAngel]

I'm going to post this, not because I necessarily agree with it but because it shows that engineers all have different and sometimes wildly different opinions on how to record things...

'There is nothing I find more annoying than two mics on an acoustic guitar.
I find it baffling as to why anyone would want to put two mics on a mono
source point that isn't fully stationary, especially for the stated goal of a
"stereo" guitar.

Two microphones in close proximity to a rather compact collection point for
stereo capture makes absolutely no sense..."

From page 208 of Mixerman's latest book, "Zen and the Art of Recording". (Mixerman is the best-selling author of three books about music production and a pro audio blog etc. etc. He's been recording, mixing and producing since 1992 and his discography includes Foreigner, Amy Grant, Ben Harper, Pharcyde etc. etc.. )

It's a big world out there... and sometimes it seems that hardly anyone arrives at the same point the same way

[Doug Young]

Interesting. My experience is a bit diiferent (and of course my application is totally different). Ive never found a big tonal distinction between SDCS and LDCs. My Schoeps (ldc) are probably darker and mellower than my Brauners ( Ldcs). I wouldnt expect blending 2 condensers in mono to add much unless the morning cs are radically different, Id probably try to dial tone in any needed "bite" with eq or other effects.

The doubling parts makes perfect sense, there, you're firmly in multi-track land, mixing muktiple instruments. Two rhythm guitars, doubling, slightly, or even fully panned can sound huge.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by DesolationAngel

I'm going to post this, not because I necessarily agree with it but because it shows that engineers all have different and sometimes wildly different opinions on how to record things...

'There is nothing I find more annoying than two mics on an acoustic guitar.
I find it baffling as to why anyone would want to put two mics on a mono
source point that isn't fully stationary, especially for the stated goal of a
"stereo" guitar.

Two microphones in close proximity to a rather compact collection point for
stereo capture makes absolutely no sense..."

From page 208 of Mixerman's latest book, "Zen and the Art of Recording". (Mixerman is the best-selling author of three books about music production and a pro audio blog etc. etc. He's been recording, mixing and producing since 1992 and his discography includes Foreigner, Amy Grant, Ben Harper, Pharcyde etc. etc.. )

It's a big world out there... and sometimes it seems that hardly anyone arrives at the same point the same way

He seems to be missing that an acoustic guitar is not a mono point source, at least for many of us. But maybe in his world, it is. Youre absolutely right, that there are different views, tastes, and opinions. I would not choose him to mix or produce a recording for me, and he'd probably run in horror from the kind of music i do, so it would all work out :-)

[DesolationAngel]

It's actually fascinating to read, back to back, volumes 1 and 2 of Behind the Glass... Volume 1 came out in 2000 and Volume 2 in 2009. Back in 2000 a lot of the people interviewed were just starting to dabble in recording to disk and Pro Tools... by 2009 it's far more accepted but you can also feel that the industry has changed within less than a decade. The range of people interviewed make for fascinating reading, too... from George Martin to Tony Visconti via Alan Parsons, Brian Wilson and Phil Ramone. The second volume is even more eclectic with jazz producers and classical engineers etc. Then there's the Glyn Johns book and his famous 4 microphone technique for drums (as opposed to up to 12 these days)... and Phill Brown who seemed to sling a U67 on everything. I LOVE the variety.

[DesolationAngel]

This has been a most enjoyable thread, chaps... I hope the OP is still here

[AcousticDreams]

YES, an absolute fun threads..So much input-information...and all done with great taste! Kudos to everyone...
This is exactly what should happen in a forum..a sharing of information that may or may not cause each of us to step out of our norm and experiment!
One final thought about the stereo verses mono recording of guitars.
I have also heard that argument from a professional mixing engineer friend of mine, Who says some of the same things...about having to put the guitar in mono when balanced with lots of other instruments. And I am sure that is true for many instances. But here is what I say...To the performer..we who are playing the guitar..I believe we do hear it in a stereo mode...our right and left ears. And that is why..the spaced pair...in many ways..sounds relatively natural to my ears. Of course..it is a bit more exaggerated...but there is some of what our ears would hear. There is a gap in between my right and left ear..in my case..with my fat head...a large one..ha ha.
Sometimes I get the best, played acoustic sound...(non recorded) in a small bedroom close to a corner wall. And well, sound bounces off those two walls..and you get...somewhat of a stereo effect. Doesn't most of the world guitar players=play in our bedrooms? On the other hand...I also like one mic on guitar as well.
I have learned lots and lots of nice stuff today. In fact my head has been spinning around and about to fall off... I have been on a quest to find the perfect mic. But now I see from your posts...that mics are kind of like guitars...no one is perfect..no one is right for every situation...and that is a tiny bit of a bummer for me...cause that means I will eventually have to buy more mics! Phaser boxes & plug ins and much, much more, Lots of fun!