Top color changing question

[Photojeep]

Over the past mont or so, I purchased 2 Martin guitars (DRS2 and GPC-16E), both of which have a natural top. As I was looking at guitars however I came across some with "aged toner" which I didn't really consider for various reasons but it got me to thinking.

I understand these instruments are given this color to simulate an aged top but that brought up this question:

Is it the wood that changes color over time or is it the finish or a combination?

Does anyone know?

Thanks,
PJ

[JayBee1404]

My guess would be...both.

I see no reason why the wood would not darken exactly the way wood with non-coloured finish darkens - perhaps more slowly, but I still believe it darkens. The top on my HD and D-18 are noticeably darker than when new, and I know for sure that Aging Toner darkens, because the Ivoroid binding on my HD has yellowed/darkened noticeably since it was new.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

[scriv58]

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...ht=aging+toner

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...ht=aging+toner

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...ht=aging+toner

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...ht=aging+toner

[dharwin]

This definitely varies depending on the type of wood. Most spruce species will darken over time but I don't think that this is the case with some of the spruce alternatives (e.g. cedar, redwood).

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by dharwin

This definitely varies depending on the type of wood. Most spruce species will darken over time but I don't think that this is the case with some of the spruce alternatives (e.g. cedar, redwood).

Cedar darkens considerably. My Lowden has a cedar top which was very pale in colour when new but which has darkened, over the 16 years I've owned it, to match (almost) the guitar's mahogany binding.

[Brucebubs]

I've posted these pictures several times of my Martin JDP II with Italian Alpine Spruce top.

[vindibona1]

I think natural darkening depends on the environment and time. Behold, 2011 614, a 2017 814ceDLX and a 1981 MIJ Epiphone. I don't believe any of them had aged toner. The 814 was made last June and is already starting to darken a few shades because it lives on the wall in a fairly bright room (but no direct sunlight). As you can see, given enough time a natural spruce top can get a pretty good tan. My '72 D35 isn't quite as dark but pretty close.

[Photojeep]

Thank you all for the photos of your beautiful guitars but it still doesn’t answer my question, well JayBee did his best.

Just for clarification, I’m not saying the aging toner is good or bad. In fact, I’m not talking about aging toner at all except to say aging toner wasn’t an option on the two Martins I purchased.

What I’m asking is it the wood or the clear coat (nitro or whatever is used) that darkens during the NATURAL aging process. Not anything that was put on a NEW guitar to make it LOOK like an older aged instrument.

Sorry for asking the question so poorly before.

Thank you,
PJ

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by Photojeep

Thank you all for the photos of your beautiful guitars but it still doesn’t answer my question, well JayBee did his best.

Just for clarification, I’m not saying the aging toner is good or bad. In fact, I’m not talking about aging toner at all except to say aging toner wasn’t an option on the two Martins I purchased.

What I’m asking is it the wood or the clear coat (nitro or whatever is used) that darkens during the NATURAL aging process. Not anything that was put on a NEW guitar to make it LOOK like an older aged instrument.

Sorry for asking the question so poorly before.

Thank you,
PJ

It is primarily the wood that darkens

Especially on the newer guitars that use the catalyzed poly finishes...which really do not darken or yellow out like French Polish or Nitro that is/was used on some new but mostly older guitars.

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Imbler]

And UV greatly hastens the darkening.

I've built all my guitars so I know what they look like from new. My daily players have "guitar sweaters" on them (those slipcover like things) that protect the french polish shellac from my perspiration. It extends about an inch or so onto the soundboard.

And sure enough those guitars have "farmer tans" The spruce under the cloth is still white while the exposed spruce is brown. So they really are getting tanned,
Mike

[Photojeep]

Thank you very much!

PJ

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Photojeep

What I’m asking is it the wood or the clear coat (nitro or whatever is used) that darkens during the NATURAL aging process.

PJ, with a clear nitrocellulose lacquer finish, it is both the spruce of the top AND the lacquer that darken. Once you get to a certain point, probably most of the darkening that takes place is the wood. But nitrocellulose lacquer does darken and yellow to a degree.

Synthetic finishes typically do not darken and yellow the way nitrocellulose lacquer does. So on a Taylor guitar, with its poly UV finish, any top darkening that you can document is the wood alone, not the finish along with it.

As has been mentioned, cedar and redwood tops darken as well, though generally not as dramatically as spruce, since spruce starts off blonder and proceeds to get darker. But, yeah, cedar shows the same sort of darkening when exposed to UV light.

As a general rule of thumb for most woods, not just tonewoods on guitars, with exposure to light over the years blond woods tend to darken some and dark woods tend to bleach out a bit and lighten.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Zandit75]

I must have a freak of a guitar, or Maton didn't pick a book matched face for my old Dread!
23yrs on and the two halves are different shades, straight down the join line!

[Parlorman]

As others have said, some finishes will darken with age but most of the change in guitar tops is the wood darkening from UV light exposure due to photochemical oxidation. Lighter woods typically used on guitar tops darken while some darker woods will get lighter.

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by Zandit75

I must have a freak of a guitar, or Maton didn't pick a book matched face for my old Dread!
23yrs on and the two halves are different shades, straight down the join line!

Not a freak, nor necessarily mis-matched - the top has run-out. Explanation in the link.

http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html