Advantages of External Mics with Zoom

[EDyer]

Apologies in advance if this has been asked before, I've found a wealth of info on Zoom recorders but can't seem to find an answer for this kind of basic general knowledge question I have.

I recently bought an H4n Pro that I'm having a lot of fun with. Being a perennial gearhead, though, I'm looking at those XLR jacks and wanting something to plug into them, lol. So my question is really just for my own education...obviously external mics open the door for many things, but for solo guitar, what sort of differences/advantages do you see in sound quality? (I.E., the two internal mics vs two reasonable quality external, all else equal). Is it mostly an improvement in noise, or is the whole recording quality improved? And how much do you have to spend to see a difference...would something like a Rode M5 be a marked improvement, or do you have to go higher end to see a difference?

To clarify, I have no issue at all with the quality for my really basic needs, I just like to tinker and I'm curious.

Thanks!

[RodB]

i use a Zoom H5 and usually only use external mics for serious recording - in my case SE2200A mics.

The Zoom mics give very good results for their size / cost, but there is a noticeable step up in sound quality with the external mics, IMO being more true to the original sound. Even good quality mics can bring something different to the overall sound, subtle differences that the ear can still detect.

Another reason to use external mics is the freedom to place the mics differently relative to the sound source. In my case I prefer setting them apart about 2 feet back from the guitar, pointing slightly inwards, one somewhere around the treble side of the lower bout region, quite low down behind the bridge, and the other towards the neck upper bout joint, quite high and pointing slightly down as well to help miss my breathing sounds.

This arrangement works for me, i think, because room acoustics are fairly good, and otherwise closer micing would help mask room influence.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by EDyer

A Is it mostly an improvement in noise, or is the whole recording quality improved? And how much do you have to spend to see a difference...would something like a Rode M5 be a marked improvement, or do you have to go higher end to see a difference?

The mics in the Zoom's are quite amazing for the price. I mean, at the price for the whole recorder, the mic's may be contributing only a dollar or 2 to the cost! Astonishing that they work as well as they do. So if you believe more money means better quality, you don't have to spend much to be X times "better". In general, a decent external mic could be quieter (less self-noise), and as RodB mentions, you'll have more flexibility in mic placement, which gives you more options (like a mic on your guitar, and one on voice - or spaced pairs, or ORTF, etc), which alone may provide a better sound, depending on what you like.

How much do you have to spend? Hard to say. I find a pair of Audio Technica AT-2020s to sound very good, and are probably an improvement over the Zoom mics (even ignoring the additional placement opportunities) , for less than $100 each. You can go up the food chain from there, and get even less self-noise, and maybe other "better" characteristics. One thing I've found with higher-quality mics is that placement is easier. With inexpensive mics, you may have to work harder to find the right spot that sounds good. But something in the class of a KM184 (or dozens of other options in the same price/quality range), it's hard to get a really bad sound no matter where you put the mic.

Obligatory comment on room acoustics. Good room acoustics is always the biggest factor in recording guitar. A great room (probably acoustically treated) with the Zoom mics will probably beat a bad acoustic environment with even the greatest mics. If your room doesn't sound good, that's the place where you get the most bang for the buck.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by EDyer

Apologies in advance if this has been asked before, I've found a wealth of info on Zoom recorders but can't seem to find an answer for this kind of basic general knowledge question I have.

I recently bought an H4n Pro that I'm having a lot of fun with. Being a perennial gearhead, though, I'm looking at those XLR jacks and wanting something to plug into them, lol. So my question is really just for my own education...obviously external mics open the door for many things, but for solo guitar, what sort of differences/advantages do you see in sound quality? (I.E., the two internal mics vs two reasonable quality external, all else equal). Is it mostly an improvement in noise, or is the whole recording quality improved? And how much do you have to spend to see a difference...would something like a Rode M5 be a marked improvement, or do you have to go higher end to see a difference?

To clarify, I have no issue at all with the quality for my really basic needs, I just like to tinker and I'm curious.

Thanks!

I started with a Zoom H4 prior to building up a computer based home recording setup. It worked great for quick remote recordings (lessons, church, etc) as well as practice at home but like you I started to broaden the possibilities of its use.

I think the biggest initial advantage of external mics was to allow experimentation with different micing techniques: A-B spaced pair, ORTF, M-S, etc. As it turned out, my preference is usually spaced pair for solo acoustic guitar. From there external mics allowed me to start experimenting with different mic technologies and polar patterns (ribbon with figure 8, cardioid, Omni, etc).

As far as getting improvement in quality, you will probably notice an improvement if you spend $100-200 each on external mics. For me, I like to keep my gear somewhat 'in balance' as far as price/quality. If I was connecting $500+ external mics to a Zoom H4n I'd start to wonder if the recorder's preamp and a/d were significantly compromising the capability of the mics. When I was using external mics with my Zoom H4 it was either an Oktava MC-012 and/or a Cascade Fathead ribbon.

I'm not familiar with a lot of mics in the price range you might be considering, but used Oktavas could be something to consider. Also, I recently picked up a couple Line Audio CM3 mics (around $150 each with shipping). They are very nice but they are a wide cardioid polar pattern and that might not be the best choice for your initial set of mics; cardioid mics may be a better match for a variety of micing techniques and they pick up less of your room characteristics.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by EDyer

Apologies in advance if this has been asked before, I've found a wealth of info on Zoom recorders but can't seem to find an answer for this kind of basic general knowledge question I have.

I recently bought an H4n Pro that I'm having a lot of fun with. Being a perennial gearhead, though, I'm looking at those XLR jacks and wanting something to plug into them, lol. So my question is really just for my own education...obviously external mics open the door for many things, but for solo guitar, what sort of differences/advantages do you see in sound quality? (I.E., the two internal mics vs two reasonable quality external, all else equal). Is it mostly an improvement in noise, or is the whole recording quality improved? And how much do you have to spend to see a difference...would something like a Rode M5 be a marked improvement, or do you have to go higher end to see a difference?

To clarify, I have no issue at all with the quality for my really basic needs, I just like to tinker and I'm curious.

Thanks!

Hi EDyer…

When I record audio for video (separate from the in-camera mics), I use a Zoom H4n with a number of different mics.

The advantages are superior tone (better/wider frequency response), different mic patterns, lower self noise, and more control over where I'm 'aiming' the microphone(s). I often find a single studio quality mic sounds superior to the built in mics on the H4n.

If I need a high quality instrument and/or voice recording, studio mics offer better quality and more flexibility.

That said, I've gotten some really nice recordings with both a Zoom H2n and Zoom H4n (and their predecessors) with the internal mics…mounted on a tripod and placed near the source.

Another advantage of using external mics when recording others with the H4n is I can monitor and adjust audio levels while monitoring the recorder from my position.

Hope this adds to the discussion.

[EDyer]

Thanks for all the great responses, exactly the info I was looking for. I see the Rode M5 pairs used quite a bit for like $150, and they seem to get pretty good reviews. Okay as a stepping off point, or would you recommend I hold out for something a little higher end? Also kind of a related question...in your experiences, how important is buying "matched pairs" with today's gear?

[Doug Young]

Some of the mic experts here know more about this than me, but I don't think matched pairs are all that important for guitar, some people even use deliberately different mics. Matched pairs are more for XY recordings of an orchestra or something. Besides, at that price point, I don't think anyone is hand-matching the mics, it's just not economically feasible. Maybe if you're buying a pair of $5K mics, someone will be hand-measuring them and matching them, but even then, most companies don't really do it. In most cases, what you can get these days are sequential serial numbers, on the theory that 2 mics that came off the assembly line close together are likely to be the same. For high quality mics, manufacturing processes are good enough these days that all mics probably "match" pretty well. And for cheap mics, I wouldn't believe any claim of being hand matched anyway, because the labor to do it would cost more than you're paying for the mic. And for guitar it mostly doesn't matter anyway...

[EDyer]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

. Besides, at that price point, I don't think anyone is hand-matching the mics, it's just not economically feasible...

Thanks Doug, and I that statement is exactly what I was thinking.

We'll, I think I'm going to give either the NT5 or M5s a try and no doubt wind up going down a rabbit hole of expense and unwarranted obsession with learning more and upgrading everything because that's what I do, lol.

Thanks for all the help...seems I'm constantly reading old posts on AGF but rarely have a reason to post anything. This is a first-rate online community, no doubt about it. Very, very welcoming.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by EDyer

Thanks Doug, and I that statement is exactly what I was thinking.

We'll, I think I'm going to give either the NT5 or M5s a try and no doubt wind up going down a rabbit hole of expense and unwarranted obsession with learning more and upgrading everything because that's what I do, lol.

Thanks for all the help...seems I'm constantly reading old posts on AGF but rarely have a reason to post anything. This is a first-rate online community, no doubt about it. Very, very welcoming.

If you know yourself well enough to assume you'll be going down the rabbit hole of future upgrading then I'd suggest that you make a significant step up when you upgrade, and also choose gear with good resale. Look at the Oktava MK-012; it's often available on sale through Reverb from Front End Audio (right now at $204 each after 15% sale). This mic accepts swappable capsules, is available in 'matched' stereo sets, can be upgraded if you decide to eventually want that extra performance, is very saleable on the used market, and works very well on acoustic guitar.

[EDyer]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

If you know yourself well enough to assume you'll be going down the rabbit hole of future upgrading then I'd suggest that you make a significant step up when you upgrade, and also choose gear with good resale. Look at the Oktava MK-012; it's often available on sale through Reverb from Front End Audio (right now at $204 each after 15% sale). This mic accepts swappable capsules, is available in 'matched' stereo sets, can be upgraded if you decide to eventually want that extra performance, is very saleable on the used market, and works very well on acoustic guitar.

That actually great advice, thank you! Regarding the Octavas, I've read nothing but great things about them, but also a lot of concern about fakes and a China sourced version that may or may not have been ethically produced. Is it risky waters to seek them out used?

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

... at that price point, I don't think anyone is hand-matching the mics, it's just not economically feasible.

Even with that, the l/r of the mics is probably more closely matched than your recording space or your mixing space or your ears.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Even with that, the l/r of the mics is probably more closely matched than your recording space or your mixing space or your ears.

When I looked in the mirror the horrible reality came crashing through... one ear is higher than the other I wonder what the phase shift might be ? and I guess that must be my 8kHZ and up ear

[DukeX]

Originally Posted by KevWind

When I looked in the mirror the horrible reality came crashing through... one ear is higher than the other I wonder what the phase shift might be ? and I guess that must be my 8kHZ and up ear

Good one, KevWind!

[MikeMcKee]

Originally Posted by EDyer

That actually great advice, thank you! Regarding the Octavas, I've read nothing but great things about them, but also a lot of concern about fakes and a China sourced version that may or may not have been ethically produced. Is it risky waters to seek them out used?

I just sold a matched pair of Michael Joly modded MK-012's a couple weeks ago. They are great mics for all the mentioned reasons. I still have a figure of 8 attachment for them. If your budget allows look at Michael's at Oktavamod.com. Also, you can buy directly from the Oktava USA distributor. These tend to hold their resale value nicely, and are excellent mics.

[Vindellama]

I'm also interested in upgrading my h5 mics to external.
Just want to buy the best one I can afford and buy the second one when upgrading again.
But I need it to do well in live settings also.
My main candidate is the shure sm81.
Not sure if there are better alternatives around this price range, or if I should save up more.