ToneDexter - The Holy Grail! - Page 11

jonfields45 · #**151** 05-31-2018, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gfirob

You know, I read your original post and it made no sense to me at all. I wonder if you could take another run at it in words a layman could understand, perhaps in a single paragraph or so. I find it fascinating, but you really left me in the fog in that one. Thanks

I guess the bottom line is if you could make a graphic equalizer with a few 1000 bands and had the means to program it, you could emulate a Tonedexter or an electric guitar amp modeler. With a digital filter such a beast is easily realized and the problem is how to program it. Tonedexter having that filter is no big deal. Tonedexter being able to generate that program at home with a simple training procedure is a huge achievement. You could spend $150 on Matlab, a useful math tool for engineers, and still have hours of work to do what Tondexter does for you automatically. Tonedexter is a bargain, IMHO.

One other thing to consider, the difference between your pickup and mic, might not be static and could be a function of how you strike the guitar and which notes you happen to be playing. Tonedexter, or any other hardware of this type, is using a fixed program with no regard to how you are playing. Knowing how to use the information from the training process to choose a single program is another big part of the Tonedexter value proposition. A hex system with a separate pickup for each string, like a Variax Guitar, might have a leg up on this problem with a different filter program for each string.

guitaniac · #**152** 05-31-2018, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonfields45

I guess the bottom line is if you could make a graphic equalizer with a few 1000 bands and had the means to program it, you could emulate a Tonedexter or an electric guitar amp modeler. With a digital filter such a beast is easily realized and the problem is how to program it. Tonedexter having that filter is no big deal. Tonedexter being able to generate that program at home with a simple training procedure is a huge achievement. You could spend $150 on Matlab, a useful math tool for engineers, and still have hours of work to do what Tondexter does for you automatically. Tonedexter is a bargain, IMHO.

One other thing to consider, the difference between your pickup and mic, might not be static and could be a function of how you strike the guitar and which notes you happen to be playing. Tonedexter, or any other hardware of this type, is using a fixed program with no regard to how you are playing. Knowing how to use the information from the training process to choose a single program is another big part of the Tonedexter value proposition. A hex system with a separate pickup for each string, like a Variax Guitar, might have a leg up on this problem with a different filter program for each string.

I'd certainly agree that ToneDexter is a huge bargain. Even as TD currently is (as opposed to having different processing for each individual string), it worked very well with my Baggs Hex-equipped classical.

I did have some problems in training a satisfying WaveMap off my Barbera Soloist-equpped guitar, but I finally dug out an old Sony electret condenser mic which did the trick nicely. Of course, I had to use the recommended training protocol for the Soloist (only play on three non-adjacent strings).

martingitdave · #**153** 05-31-2018, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonfields45

I guess the bottom line is if you could make a graphic equalizer with a few 1000 bands and had the means to program it, you could emulate a Tonedexter or an electric guitar amp modeler. With a digital filter such a beast is easily realized and the problem is how to program it. Tonedexter having that filter is no big deal. Tonedexter being able to generate that program at home with a simple training procedure is a huge achievement. You could spend $150 on Matlab, a useful math tool for engineers, and still have hours of work to do what Tondexter does for you automatically. Tonedexter is a bargain, IMHO.

One other thing to consider, the difference between your pickup and mic, might not be static and could be a function of how you strike the guitar and which notes you happen to be playing. Tonedexter, or any other hardware of this type, is using a fixed program with no regard to how you are playing. Knowing how to use the information from the training process to choose a single program is another big part of the Tonedexter value proposition. A hex system with a separate pickup for each string, like a Variax Guitar, might have a leg up on this problem with a different filter program for each string.

Well stated! Incidentally, I had the Variax and thought it was a great piece of gear for the money. I got Strat fever and sold the Variax. But, it was impressive technology for a guitarist who needs a number of different guitar tone options during a gig.

gfirob · #**154** 05-31-2018, 10:46 AM

Thanks for the explanation, Jon much better. I think one thing that is nice about the Tonedexter is that you can use it at its most basic and it works fine, or you can try a million setups with different mikes and switch wavemaps with different guitars and go crazy if you want. It can be a basic tool or a laboratory. And your guitar just sounds better and better...

The Kid! · #**155** 05-31-2018, 11:20 AM

I’m going to borrow some headphones from a friend to do my wave maps. He asked me if this pedal can power 250ohm headphones. Thanks for the help.

The Kid! · #**156** 05-31-2018, 12:30 PM

My buddy just recommended that I come in and he would just trade me studio time! He needs some acoustic parts played on some recordings that he’s working on, and he said that he would give me as much time as I need if I give him an hour to do some parts while I’m there!

His studio is amazing, and he has a big mic locker! I’m going to take some practice runs at home before I go in there just so I know how to properly work the wave Matt process. I’ll probably have to overwrite whenever I did at home.

martingitdave · #**157** 05-31-2018, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Kid!

My buddy just recommended that I come in and he would just trade me studio time! He needs some acoustic parts played on some recordings that he’s working on, and he said that he would give me as much time as I need if I give him an hour to do some parts while I’m there!

His studio is amazing, and he has a big mic locker! I’m going to take some practice runs at home before I go in there just so I know how to properly work the wave Matt process. I’ll probably have to overwrite whenever I did at home.

Now that’s what you call a win-win situation! At a minimum I found the Shure SM81 (small condenser) mic did a great job with the ToneDexter.

Songtown · #**158** 05-31-2018, 04:00 PM

Not happy with the quack of my stock McPherson system which is some version of LR Baggs USP with Pre-Amp. Anyone have experience with this type of system with the TD?

martingitdave · #**159** 05-31-2018, 05:59 PM

ToneDexter will work well with that pickup.

Songtown · #**160** 06-01-2018, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martingitdave

ToneDexter will work well with that pickup.

Thanks, good to hear. Ordered one yesterday

gfirob · #**161** 06-01-2018, 08:45 AM

Let us know how it works out for you when you receive it. Good luck.

Songtown · #**162** 06-02-2018, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gfirob

Let us know how it works out for you when you receive it. Good luck.

Will do, set to arrive Monday!

Peter Z · #**163** 06-04-2018, 06:57 AM

I got my ToneDexter on Friday and thought i'll write some lines about my first nights with this lady in red.

First of all it it not too easy to buy a ToneDexter here in Austria. But a swiss dealer made a good job. It's just that Switzerland is not in the EU it takes a while (2 weeks) to get it through the customs.

First thing I 'wavemapped' was a Gibson L4a, a small jumbo. Maybe not the best guitar for a start because this guitar has a quit metallic sound with Elixir strings. Good to punch through acoustically but a bit hard to record.
First take was with a Neumann KM88 that exaggerated the matallic sound - I expected this but tried it anyway.
Second take with a KM86 in cardoid then in omni. Still not what I liked.
Then a RE20 and a SM57.

My mood went down a little till I took out an AKG c414 TLII. I immediatly knew I was almost there. After some experimenting with mic placement I ran the 414 through a channel strip and made little adjustments with its EQ.

Now I have a (close to) perfect acoustic sound from the built in Fishman piezo via onbord Fishman preamp (Prefix +, or so). Totally happy. Much better than with the Aura Spectrum.

My Breedlove was much easier to 'tonemap'. Should have done her in the first place.
Last guitar I tried was a Martin 000 but I found out that the pickup was broken. :-( Next time.

Then I took the double bass. 2 takes with the KM86. Just a few changes with the mic placement. Done. Great.

At last I tried my Tacoma mandolin. It definatly got more natural but I'm not sure if I prefer the ToneDexter sound to the more direct sound of the (heavily EQd) pickup sound in that special case.

Will try my other mandolin, a 'the Loar' with a C411 pickup/mic soon. I'm not sure if the C411 works with the ToneDexter. Anyone has experience with this?

Anyway, I will probably not use the ToneDexter with my mandolins, since they sound quite good as they are and I'd need too many ToneDexters that way - sorry James!

I will use my new TD for my guitars for sure.
And the next TD for double bass - for sure.
And maybe a third one for the fiddle player if it works as good as in the videos.

I absolutely recommend to experiment with a preamp and an EQ for the mic signal. I was lazy/crazy and did that without a DI box after the channel strip and it worked. Of course I have to do it again with a more correct setup.
Don't expect a 1:1 mic sound but do expect a phantastic natural sound you cannot get with other plug & play tools.

Sorry for the long post. It's not worth too much since it says the same thing like most of the posts before mine:
The ToneDexter is a really really nice thing!
Congratulations to James and his team!

Peter

gfirob · #**164** 06-04-2018, 08:04 AM

Great post Peter, thank you, and congratulations for getting the Tonedexter into Austria. Sounds like you are lucky to have that collection of mikes. I’m glad it has worked out so well for you.

I took my Tonedexter and Edwina mike to a venue to play on Saturday, an old New England meeting house, knowing only that they had a PA. Turns out they had a PA, voice and guitar mikes set up, floor monitors, a very good soundman and big mixing board in the back. He saw what I had brought and said “Why don’t you just let me take care of this…” and he did. Except for my hitting the guitar mike a couple of times with my hand (my bad) it all sounded great. So if I could just figure out how to fit that soundman into a case so I could carry him around with me, I wouldn’t need the Tonedexter at all...

Peter Z · #**165** 06-04-2018, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gfirob

So if I could just figure out how to fit that soundman into a case so I could carry him around with me, I wouldn’t need the Tonedexter at all...

:-)
Please leave that poor guy alone!!!!

I admit, a good soundman can do great things with a piezo equiped acoustic guitar in a live situation. But most of them can't. It can be acceptable through PA speakers but not through headphones.
There are not many ways to get rid of the piezo quack. You can try Aura (if you are lucky with the images), computers with IRs (complicated in a live situation) and ..... ToneDexter.
TD eliminates the quack COMPLETELY. You cannot notice any through studio monitors or headphones (this is the true test). I never ever had an engineer who could do this.
Ok, the technology is not that good, that there is no change in sound in comparison with a miced instrument but you can work on that and get really good results.
Also I know some guitar players that don't have any problem with the quack. I do!

So what James did is putting a tiny soundman in a box who is called 'the Quack-Terminator'. And that is why he gets my 5 stars.

BTW, I do have lots of nice mics as a result of decades of collecting. They are not really necessary for a good soundmapping. I'm pretty sure my Gibson is a very hard challange for the TD as said in my post before. I'm also sure I would have gotten nice results with more experiments of mic placement and EQ. But I had my mics handy so that was the easy way for me.

Also you can rent great mics for cheap money if needed so no need to buy them. And if anybody lives close to Vienna I'd borow him/her some mics for free with pleasure.