Problems with Chord Transposition

[LAN_516]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post; I hope I'm not covering "old" ground or posting my question in the wrong place. Please correct me if I am.

I often transpose guitar chords when I play music with my wife (who sings). Usually I have two reasons for transposing:

1) Moving the melody into a "sing-able" range for my wife's voice.
2) Adjusting the chords so that they're all generally "open" chords somewhere on the neck (playing with a capo).

However, I have noticed that occasionally when transposing songs, one or two of the chords don't sound quite right. Sure enough the correct notes are being played in each chord, but a chord that used to sound "low" relative to all of the other chords in the progression, may now sound relatively "high". It's not like any wrong notes are being played, but a certain amount of feeling or punch is lost with when this happens.

Can anyone set me straight as to why this happens and is there a sure-fire way to systematically avoid this happening? Should the tonic of each chord in the progression remain in the same ascending order when transposed? Does the problem occur when say, the lowest chord in the progression gets flipped to the next octave and becomes one of the highest?

Anyways, I hope I've provided sufficient detail for comment. I don't have a detailed example off the top of my head but am happy to dig one up if required.

Many Thanks!

[Brent Hutto]

It's called "voice leading" and while it isn't exactly rocket science it is something I don't quite have a handle on. If you study music theory voice leading is a topic you get to pretty quickly. In fact, if I ever crack open my theory textbook again that's pretty much the next topic coming up.

Like you I can hear what needs to happen and I can hear when it doesn't happen but I don't (yet) know how to plan ahead for it and certainly not "on the fly" when I'm playing.

Here's a link to a fairly basic intro on the web.

http://www.lcsproductions.net/MusThr.../pages/63.html

The idea is that each "voice" with a chord progression moves in a pleasing fashion and avoid certain unpleasant jumps and intervals. So in terms of a series of simple triads the top notes, middle notes and bass notes each should flow together in its own "line" that wouldn't sound too oddball if it were a chunk of a melody.

Or something like that. It really doesn't have to be perfect but there are some general principles that you should stick close to at least 90% of the time to get a good-sounding progression.

[Malcolm]

I capo quite a lot, regular capo, dropped D and short cut, and have not found this to be a problem. Inversions, notes of the chord with the root note being in different order, i.e. C, E, G standard chord, E, G, C 1st inversion then G, C, E 2nd inversion will give a different sound or another voice.

But, just from placing the capo and then using standard chord fingering, I have not run into this problem. If you could be a little more specific about which chord this happens on and your fingering used I'm sure someone could explain what is happening. Just thought of something -- if you are mixing barre and open string, i.e. a barre chord of a specific chord will sound different if that same chord is played using standard open string fingering, has to do with where on the fretboard you gather the notes from. Could that be what is happening?

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by LAN_516

However, I have noticed that occasionally when transposing songs, one or two of the chords don't sound quite right. Sure enough the correct notes are being played in each chord, but a chord that used to sound "low" relative to all of the other chords in the progression, may now sound relatively "high". It's not like any wrong notes are being played, but a certain amount of feeling or punch is lost with when this happens.

When you transpose the chord for chord you aren't doing a true transposition, in that although the relationships between chords is being maintained, the new chords are in different positions, meaning the chords are played as different inversions from the original.

Take a E-A-B progression, played on the open strings, and consider the highest note that will be strummed (on the high E string). E (E is high), A (E is high), B (F# is high). Transpose that to D-G-A in first position (open) and consider where you play the high E string. You find that F# is high, G is high, and E is high.

Some songs don't work very well when simply transposed chord for chord instead of note for note. But I like it because it often gives the familiar an unfamiliar twist, and can inspire a whole new rendition, making a cover more than a cover.

[vac4873]

So, let me see if this is what you mean-

I know a song or have a sheet in the key of G. Unfortunately, my singing range dictates that it would sound a lot better if I played it in F. So I get out my trusty capo, place it on the 3rd fret and transpose the tune into D - Viola! I have the tune in F now without having to play Bb or any of the more difficult formations. For simplicity's sake, let's just say the song is just I, IV, V, I. So we will transpose G, C, D, G into D, G, A, D.

But my problem is - playing in G, the bass note for my tonic is the G on the 3rd fret of the 6th string, and when I go to C it's neatly 3rd fret of the 5th string a perfect 4th above the other bass note, and when I go to D, it's open 4th string, Nice and orderly, ascending through the progression, and going back "home" to the "lowest" chord.

Now in D, I start off with the open 4th string as my bass note for the tonic, and go DOWN a perfect fifth to the 3rd fret of the 6th string, then again up to the open 5th string. So now some of the "neatness" of the original progression has disappeared.

To further complicate things, the order in which pitches occur in these chords also varies. Playing the 6-5-4-3 strings of the G chord gets you 1-3-5-1. The C chord also get this playing 5-4-3-2. Now the D chord is a little different, you get 1-5-1-3. So playing the same pattern, you get a different order of pitches.

To solve the first "problem", there are a couple of options:

Instead of transposing to D, transpose to C and play on the 5th fret. This won't get an exact match, but it will be much closer, especially if you use the "F" chord shape and move it up 2 frets for the G. This is because the chord shapes for G, C, and F all have the 1-3-5-1 makeup.

You can drop the E string to D. This would solve most of the "high vs low" issues. If you want an exact match in the patterns, you would have to rearrange some of the chord formations to get you there (e.g. D would need to be played 6-4-3-2 (string wise) with the chord formation 0-x-4-2-3-x (using the capo as open or zero fret).

Hope that helped a little.

Matt

[Bern]

Originally Posted by LAN_516

However, I have noticed that occasionally when transposing songs, one or two of the chords don't sound quite right. Sure enough the correct notes are being played in each chord, but a chord that used to sound "low" relative to all of the other chords in the progression, may now sound relatively "high". It's not like any wrong notes are being played, but a certain amount of feeling or punch is lost with when this happens.

Yeah, the tone color changes and depending on the capo position and which chord shape is used, the chord intervals might change as well.
One thing you could try is tuning a whole step down (E6 > D, A5 > G, etc.) and see if this works for for you. Basically, if you were to play the open G major shape you are actually playing F major, yet, you would still maintain the same tone color. Hope this make any sense to you...

[vac4873]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

Some songs don't work very well when simply transposed chord for chord instead of note for note. But I like it because it often gives the familiar an unfamiliar twist, and can inspire a whole new rendition, making a cover more than a cover.

Yes, that is the other choice, embrace the change and make it new. Like the old saying "viva la difference"

Matt

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by LAN_516

...I often transpose guitar chords when I play music with my wife (who sings). Usually I have two reasons for transposing:

1) Moving the melody into a "sing-able" range for my wife's voice.
2) Adjusting the chords so that they're all generally "open" chords somewhere on the neck (playing with a capo).

However, I have noticed that occasionally when transposing songs, one or two of the chords don't sound quite right. Sure enough the correct notes are being played in each chord, but a chord that used to sound "low" relative to all of the other chords in the progression, may now sound relatively "high". It's not like any wrong notes are being played, but a certain amount of feeling or punch is lost with when this happens.

Can anyone set me straight as to why this happens and is there a sure-fire way to systematically avoid this happening? Should the tonic of each chord in the progression remain in the same ascending order when transposed? Does the problem occur when say, the lowest chord in the progression gets flipped to the next octave and becomes one of the highest?

Hi LAN...
First of all, hi and welcome to the group. We are glad you joined and jumped into the discussions right away.

Players and their guitars have a different 'sound' from each other, so we may play a song in the same key as the original and still have it come out sounding different just because of tonal differences or playing styles are different.

It's not always convenient when we transpose to keep the voicing of the shifted chords in the same range or relationship as in the original key - at least not without a bit of thinking it through with a guitar in hand. Unless there is a critical lick that the audience will miss or spot if it's changed, it's still not usually a problem...

If you play in the original key, and only need to move it a fret or two up you should be able to keep it sounding pretty 'normal'. But if you need to move it a 4th or 5th, then you may need to consider playing in a different key relative to the capo that you can manage and your wife can sing comfortably in...thankfully if she is singing, she should be who the audience if focused on and not the guitar.