The PLEK

[bnjp]

Originally Posted by steveh

I have extensive experience of both luthiers and PLEK, on both steel strings and electrics. I've had several luthier built instruments PLEK'ed.

In my experience...many luthiers are amazing guitar builders, but do poor setups. It's a different skill set IMO.

[KingCavalier]

I've been playing Guitar for 50+ years, I've played well over 100 different Guitars but I never played a "PLEKed" Guitar. I can tell right away if the setup is an issue. To me a poorly crafted nut and/or saddle is typically the cause of a bad setup.

Does the PLEK address the nut and saddle or just the frets?

Thanks

[Bob Womack]

Here's the comparison being made in the thread: custom, high-end action and playability luthierie by machine or custom, high-end action and playability luthierie by hand. I have no doubt that a master can translate the custom desires of a client to his instrument by either method. I'd file it under a different tool in the hand of a master, essentially.

However, what I see compared far more often is factory Plek'ing of an instrument vs. luthier custom adjustment of action and playability. Those two aren't always comparable, and comes down to the factory's philosophy.

I've repeatedly rejoice in the advent of factory Plek'ing because it has brought many manufacturers' instruments to a place where a client can expect to get a playable instrument from that company EVERY TIME. Will it fit his playing style exactly? That isn't guaranteed but it will be pretty darned good. That is a step forward. I remember encountering reasonably high-end factory guitars in stores with major action flaws that couldn't be fixed with a simple fret level and set up. Those brands who have enlisted Plek at the factory have eliminated that worry from the minds of consumers. However, they most probably decide to send all the guitars out the door with the action at the nut being higher than I prefer. They do that because it is typically cheaper to lower action at the nut than to raise it.

The last three Gibsons I've bought, for instance, have had actions good enough that I haven't felt I had to rush them off to my luthier. The one that hasn't taken the trip will get there eventually, but Gibson has upped their action game to make them usable right out of the box. But my luthier's standard setup that he calls his "modern" action is just a little bit better than Gibson chooses to refine theirs, so it will eventually make the trip.

Bob

[Truckjohn]

I see the point of use in a factory. And I would expect that careful use in the factory is going to reject the grossly messed up units that otherwise get shipped... And as a result - can potentially help an operation sort out upstream process and material issues (if you do it right...).

For example.... Say your sourcing guy gets a screaming deal on mill tail ends of fret wire.... Theoretically - it "meets spec" but in reality it's all over the place dimensionally.... Well - that gets to the Plek machine and it can't be corrected and still maintain the action specs..... If the organization is working right - they reject the stuff and now the purchasing guy is stuck with an expensive lesson concerning a big pile of bad material...

Or say for example - the neck making machine is a bit off - resulting in wonky neck sets.... Now they get kicked out at the final plek rather than ending up at Guitar Center and then resulting in all sorts of nasty forum posts...

Or say the fretboards aren't being levelled properly... Same thing....

And so if you do it right - this forces you to sort this stuff out with good practices and QC checks in the process...

Do you need this machine to do it? No... Can it be done manually at factory quantities? Sure.... But I know the reality of doing a lot of manual operations...

[tadol]

Originally Posted by KingCavalier

Does the PLEK address the nut and saddle or just the frets?

It absolutely can - its more a question of how the user cares to set it up and operate it. It can contour the fretboard, rout inlays, cut fret slots, shape frets, cut nut slots and shape the nut, shape the saddle, etc - its more a question of what the operator wants to do, and many of those jobs may not be be the optimal or most cost effective use for a shop so they may choose to do them by hand.

But keep in mind, the machine does not do these things without a highly trained operator running it. A factory might set it up for one or two very specific jobs that they need to do repeatedly, while a custom shop might use it for a much wider range of work, from very highly tuned setups on new guitars to detailed analysis and problem solving on much older instruments. But it still depends on the abilities of the luthier operating it -

[fazool]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Thanks, mercy.

I read the blog with interest ... the one comment I would make is that the assumption of a cumulative tolerance of 5 x .0007" , resulting in a potential end error of.003.5" seems wildly speculative to me.

Were these figures plucked out of thin air or do PLEK actually acknowledge these tolerances in their technical literature?

The other flaw in that logic is the assumption of varying joints. If there is a dimensional change in a part, it will stay that size. If there is a looseness in a joint it can give you varying results, however under the same counteracting forces the slop is going to be taken up in the same direction each time.

For example, if you have a loose pivot point but apply tool pressure on fret 18, the arm will slop around until it hits bottom in the slop. When you move to fret 20 you aren't going to see a sudden change to the other extreme and have the joint move .0035" more or less.

Another flaw is that this assumes all the tolerances stack up in-line. With the example of joints they do not, you only get a portion of the contribution of each tolerance and you have top trig it out.

The idea that precision machines, like Pleks, etc. are only best suited for salvaging poor quality raw material is misguided.

What a luthier can do, is adjust-feel-adjust-listen-adjust-touch-adjust-feel and on and on until the get things just the way their senses prefer. And a skilled luthier can do this better than anyone or any machine.

What a precision machine can do is give you extremely consistent results that are very accurate. If you tell the machine what to do, it will give you exactly what you told it.

We had the same old argument when NC machine controls were challenging old school "swiss watch" machinists, and that was pre-CNC.

Then we had the CNC machine controls challenging the old NC controls.

We had the same thing when 2D CAD systems challenged the old school pencil Draftsmen.

We had the same thing when 3D solid modeling challenged old school 2D CAD.


This is no different.

A machine cannot replicate the artistry of a luthier's human touch.

But a human can't touch the accuracy and repeatability of a machine, let alone do it one-thousand times as fast.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by redir

Two things I liked from that video was one, the compound radius and two, the reverse engineering. THe second in particular is definitely pretty cool. If you have a guitar that you absolutly love the feel of it then the PLEK can reproduce that.

I know you are aware, but I’m putting it out into the Internet world of readers, the only issue with the second reverse engineering option, is it can only reproduce the relationship between the strings and frets, a neck has different rear profiles, different widths at the nut and 21st and so forth, so whilst two guitars may be Setup identically on the plek machine, they are likely to feel entirely different whilst being played.

Originally Posted by tadol

It can contour the fretboard, rout inlays, cut fret slots, shape frets, cut nut slots and shape the nut, shape the saddle, etc

I was of the belief, for a price increase to the basic machine it could have the software installed to do Nuts, Saddles, and Nylon string guitars and installation of simplistic round fret markers and engraving, but this was all an upgrade to the standard machine so not always available at every place that offers plek services.

To the best of my knowledge as limited as it is on this subject, it cannot carry out Fret levels on Banjos, Harp guitars, Mandolins, Lutes, Ukeles, Bouzakis, Charangos, Dulcimers, Cigar box instruments, Fan fretted guitars, True temperament fretted guitars, it also cannot board level Gibson guitars without removing the nubs on the Binding and so forth.

Your reference to it being capable of doing inlays, do you have any links?, I know it can do round fret markers, but was unaware they had managed to incorporate software for actually doing any other form of inlay, let alone a complex design, I was aware it can engrave, but that is not Inlaying.

For Standard Electric /Bass and Acoustic Guitars it does an excellent job, plek manufacturer during their sales pitch to me said, two days of one on one training is sufficient for any person of any skill level to operate and drive their machine, they feel they have made the machine incredibly user friendly.

Steve

[Monsoon1]

I spent 15+ years as a machinist, and I can say without any doubt, that there is no fret leveling that a human can do, that a Plek machine couldn't do as well or better.
Even the elite fret levelers who are nearly perfect, still can't take into consideration all the things a full Plek scan can.
One thing to understand is that the neck is scanned across frets as well as fretboard, for all 6 strings. When the scan is done, the Plek machine effectively "knows" everything relevant that there is to know about the frets and fretboard.
At this point, it's a simple matter of inputting how close the guitar owner wants everything.
And a really big bonus, is that the Plek is capable of finding the lowest point across all frets, and making everything accurate to that point. So the least possible amount of fretwire is removed. And that is something a human could never match, not even a pro who can get the playability for all intents and purposes perfect.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by Monsoon1

I spent 15+ years as a machinist, and I can say without any doubt, that there is no fret leveling that a human can do, that a Plek machine couldn't do as well or better.

Agreed.

Question: When you were a machinist, if someone asked you or the business you worked for to machine up say an acoustic guitar bridge, what would have a job like that been costed out as, I understand you may have been machining ferrous and non ferrous metals. But humour me with costs associated with hand making that one part.

Steve

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Agreed.

Question: When you were a machinist, if someone asked you or the business you worked for to machine up say an acoustic guitar bridge, what would have a job like that been costed out as, I understand you may have been machining ferrous and non ferrous metals. But humour me with costs associated with hand making that one part.

Steve

You're talking about a job shop. I was in aerospace. But I do recall that setup time was billed at $120/hr.
This was in the 90's, so it's safe to say that it's more today.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by Monsoon1

You're talking about a job shop. I was in aerospace. But I do recall that setup time was billed at $120/hr..

Nice, for note I worked in The aviation game for 20 odd years, I’m not a machinist by trade, but was required many times to machine parts to aviation tolerances as part of my job as we had cnc milling machines , lathes and mills, made some seat rails for Fokker aircraft, undercarriage and brake parts and so forth.

Sorry transgressing, so assuming it’s around 240 an hr and a bridge is an hrs work. A cnc bridge can be purchased for as little as 5 dollars hand made 240, as per your example, highly skilled technician doin the job, not a preloaded program and let machine do job.

My pet issue is not the machine but the costs the company encourages its “franchises” to charge, they charge more for a computer operated job than it costs to do it by hand. Which imo is unethical. Everything else in society is the reverse, something made or done by cnc or machine is cheaper than having it done by a skilled trades person by hand

Steve

[sirwhale]

PLEKing should be the future of all decent factory guitars. I still don't understand how you can pay a fair amount of money on a guitar without the guarantee that the frets will be good.

[redir]

Originally Posted by Monsoon1

I spent 15+ years as a machinist, and I can say without any doubt, that there is no fret leveling that a human can do, that a Plek machine couldn't do as well or better.
Even the elite fret levelers who are nearly perfect, still can't take into consideration all the things a full Plek scan can.
One thing to understand is that the neck is scanned across frets as well as fretboard, for all 6 strings. When the scan is done, the Plek machine effectively "knows" everything relevant that there is to know about the frets and fretboard.
At this point, it's a simple matter of inputting how close the guitar owner wants everything.
And a really big bonus, is that the Plek is capable of finding the lowest point across all frets, and making everything accurate to that point. So the least possible amount of fretwire is removed. And that is something a human could never match, not even a pro who can get the playability for all intents and purposes perfect.

For the sake of argument, my machined precision straight edge sanding beam is capable of doing the same thing. If you for example mark the tops of every fret with a Sharpie or some such marker then proceed to level the frets the last dot of ink will be the lowest point and once it's gone all other points will be the same.

I know what you are saying and believe me I know that before long the machines will be telling us humans what to do (and maybe that's a good thing) but fact is it can still be done by hand to a point where it becomes humanly impossible to tell the difference. Like for example if the difference is below the rated accuracy of our measurement equipment (brains) then it is statistically insignificant.

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by redir

For the sake of argument, my machined precision straight edge sanding beam is capable of doing the same thing. If you for example mark the tops of every fret with a Sharpie or some such marker then proceed to level the frets the last dot of ink will be the lowest point and once it's gone all other points will be the same.

I know what you are saying and believe me I know that before long the machines will be telling us humans what to do (and maybe that's a good thing) but fact is it can still be done by hand to a point where it becomes humanly impossible to tell the difference. Like for example if the difference is below the rated accuracy of our measurement equipment (brains) then it is statistically insignificant.

All other points won't be as even as a Plek can do. And the amount of fretwire that get's removed won't be either. And those differences would be easily measurable.
I'm not saying a human touch can't get it great. But far more luthiers will fail to make it great, than will a Plek.
I've experienced it when I took 3 guitars to one of the oldest respected shops in the area. Not one of them was much better than when i'd taken them in. And their fret guy only did fretwork. That was his job.
I would have preferred to pay the premium to get all 3 guitars done on a Plek.