Universities and Colleges Suck...How They Fell and Can They be Saved?

[AmericanEagle]

Originally Posted by Davis Webb

What is wrong with higher education in your mind? Help me understand it. Help me see it through your eyes. That would be great if you could. I am too close, one cannot taste their own tongue.

The cost is what’s wrong. My niece just graduated from college as a nurse. She’s $100,000 in debt. Yes, one hundred grand in debt!

[cmd612]

Originally Posted by srick

[*]With the emphasis on dollars raised, there has been a rise (in all fields) of the middle-level manager, the communications specialists, the PR specialists, etc. These folks have nothing to do with education and their presence draws money and influence away from the academics.
. . .

I think on a bigger scale, this is a microcosm of almost every institution in our society. Many bureaucratic layers have been added to each profession-> these layers need to be financed-> the core mission is compromised because money and attention is drawn to the bureaucracy, as opposed to the bottom line workers.

If you haven't, you might enjoy reading The Fall of the Faculty by Benjamin Ginsberg. He argues that what used to be understood as the core missions of universities - teaching and research - have been sacrificed in favor of supporting a dense web of staff and administrative positions ("deanlets") that have little, if any, relation to those core missions.

[PorkPieGuy]

Originally Posted by Davis Webb

Its not the same as it was. Its all about getting a job now.

I grew up in the South, and I still live here. I have a BS, an MA, and an EDS, all in education, and I currently work at a community college. After watching my dad work two jobs and never be at home all through my childhood, a college education has always been about getting a job for me. I learned a lot (and still do), but I simply saw college as an endurance test the majority of the time.

Originally Posted by Davis Webb

They promote internally and those people rise up, they don''t really try to get the best person for the job. There are thousands of managers.

Of course they hire from the inside. If someone puts in their time, they move up. I don't see a problem with this. Yes, I agree that some colleges are "top heavy" when it comes to administrators; however, I think as the baby-boom population continues to retire, it will change over time.

Originally Posted by Davis Webb

75% of faculty at some colleges and 40% on average, are all part time. Part time means 3 hours a week. So most of the people teaching have no security at all and must hold several jobs to eat. However, the managers have long contracts and usually last forever.

By managers, I'm assuming you mean administration. If a person is an administrator and does a great job, why shouldn't they stick around a long time? We need good administrators.

Yes, colleges use adjuncts quite a bit. I was told in grad school that if I ever planned to work full time at a community college, plan to work part time beforehand. This way, people can get to know you, and you have a chance to prove yourself. I did this for 4 years before I got on full time, and it was a crummy job at that. I ended up moving to my perfect job at another college, and I couldn't be happier. My "grunt time" was tough at times, but I'm glad I did it.

Originally Posted by Davis Webb

None of them seem interested in trying new teaching ideas that are proven by research. The faculty have passion but are side lined as managers run things. Online learning is impersonal and awkward still and it has lead to firing even more faculty, cause you don't need them once its online.

This is a huge assumption, and I don't agree with it. Many teachers/instructors/professors are pretty innovative in what they do. However, maybe they aren't advertised or published much.

The only time I've seen faculty "sidelined" by "managers" is when something is handed down from the State that says "All faculty must do ABC in their classrooms now." There have been many of these throughout the years, but from what I've seen, the "managers" are simply being reactive to what's been handed to them.

Online learning is what it is. I've been teaching online for a few years, and students seem to really like my classes that I teach. If students are self-directed, they tend to do a great job and write some pretty cool essays.

Originally Posted by Davis Webb

It costs millions of dollars for each one to exist. None of it makes sense. Its like they are pure labor production mills. Which sounds fine. Until you wonder what major Einstein would take if they were pushing him into social media business skills.

I agree that some colleges are diploma mills. I have my own opinions of which ones, and they are definitely doing more harm than good. I'm not going to name names, but they are awful. I know that I remarked earlier about a lot of education being a series of hoops to jump through, but whenever the only hoop is "pay tuition, get a degree," there's something very, very wrong with this.

Originally Posted by Davis Webb

What is wrong with higher education in your mind? Help me understand it. Help me see it through your eyes. That would be great if you could. I am too close, one cannot taste their own tongue.

I absolutely hate the amount of money kids are spending on education these days, but the problem is with both parties.

First, I think college is just way too expensive. Period. Community college is one of the best values out there, but there's still a stigma attached to it; however, I believe that the stigma is slowly going away.

Second, I think students and parents are paying too much.

I'm speaking in generalities here, and I realize that everyone's situation is different. This is just what I've seen.

a. It does not make financial sense for a student to pay top dollar for tuition, room and board their first two years of college when that same student will most likely receive a just-as-good-if-not-better education from a local community college. Many of the freshmen-level college classes at large universities are taught by grad assistants. In contrast, many freshmen- and sophomore-level classes taught at community colleges are taught by seasoned instructors who actually love teaching.

b. Along the same lines, too many young adults and their parents are sold on the "college experience." If you are someone who can afford to give this to your kids, then by all means go for it! However, the idea of sending my kids off to college and paying tens of thousands of dollars a year so they can have the experience of living in a nice place with a pool and hot tub is ludicrous. People graduating with $80,000+ in debt with a 4-year degree in a rubbish major should be a crime, but it happens every day.

c. College isn't for everyone. I mean that.

[Dirk Hofman]

The main thing that sucks about colleges is that we don’t have enough graduates to fill the bazillion open jobs, and have to hire from outside the US constantly.

Needs to be more available.

[robj144]

I teach a science at a university and have been an instructor for 15 years. Universities aren't all bad as I believe a huge majority of my colleagues do a good job at teaching and preparing students well. Here are my problems though:

1) It's too expensive on average. The reasons why are political and I won't say more than that, but it needs to be fixed soon.

2) Many students are not in the correct majors. There's a significant percentage of students in my classes that cannot do math for whatever reason. These students shouldn't be in a science. They need to find a major which suits their skill sets.

3) Many students should not be in college at all. For instance, I see a lot of "engineers" just want to design products but are also very poor in math in science too. They would be better in a trade field in my opinion.

I personally try to lessen the cost to the students by not using a textbook. Textbooks are also too expensive and book companies typically add a page or two and then release a "new edition" every year. I stopped dealing with publishers 10 years ago and loathe when they show up every semester.

[ylekot]

Originally Posted by Wadcutter

Posting what I truly feel is wrong with higher education in America would get me permanently banned from the AGF. Consequently, I will just lurk on this thread, but with great interest. Carry on brothers and sisters.

I could not have said it better myself.....thank you for putting into words what my drug addled brain was squirming with......stupid pain meds

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by AmericanEagle

The cost is what’s wrong. My niece just graduated from college as a nurse. She’s $100,000 in debt. Yes, one hundred grand in debt!

This is it, right here. And the whole on-line university thing is a scam. Hardly anyone graduates from those programs and if they do, the degree is about as useful as a GED.

[Muddslide]

My father was a college professor most of his life and I intended to follow in his footsteps, but he and some of his colleagues dissuaded me, largely through their discussions about how the field has changed.

I do hold a couple of degrees, but never really saw (personally) colleges and universities from the teaching side.

I finished my bachelor's in 1991. My master's (after having a family) in 2006. There has been significant change even in the past 12 years.

I tend to think one of the biggest reasons for them "sucking" is that--as in so many arenas--the drive has been towards profits at the expense of everything else so many have undertaken a business/corporate model and thus have lost their human focus.

[BrunoBlack]

The Higher Education system is extremely complicated and diverse. IMO there is no simple standard for praise or criticism. There are many different experiences that are influenced by a complex matrix of factors. It’s all the same as it always was, only different.

I’m now waiting for the following threads:
- Banks and Banking suck...
- Airlines and Air Travel suck...
- Police and Law Enforcement suck...
- Healthcare Providers suck...
- Newspapers and News Media suck...
- [Insert others here]

[Muddslide]

Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy

...too many young adults and their parents are sold on the "college experience." If you are someone who can afford to give this to your kids, then by all means go for it! However, the idea of sending my kids off to college and paying tens of thousands of dollars a year so they can have the experience of living in a nice place with a pool and hot tub is ludicrous. People graduating with $80,000+ in debt with a 4-year degree in a rubbish major should be a crime, but it happens every day.

College isn't for everyone. I mean that.

Well spoken.

For many young people, I think trade schools would be a better option these days.

[imwjl]

I see different colored broad brushes painted here because schools vary so much and same for what you study. Add that we all have such different interests.

My experience included a year at a small private school, one as a part-time student at a decent state school, and graduating from a major university that is always in top ranked schools. This stuff is all being reminded as we do college decisions with our daughter right now.

Some aspects of the small schools I went to were a joke relative to graduating in the big and much higher ranked university. It was also a whole other league but it's obvious we can't all get in and out of the top ranked schools so they all have a place.

Cost is certainly a problem. With our current parental state I see the same school I went to and about any we're looking at with my daughter is more expensive beyond inflation. One big thing to consider is school health services covered about anything in my day. That was little stuff, the time I stepped on piece of metal that went all the way though foot and shoe or trip to the the hospital after being poisoned by bad chicken burrito.

Many are quick to place blame but there's also personal responsibility. Any kid going to school needs to know you need to end up with knowledge and skills where the world will pay a living wage. At times I see people blame schools for that one. How is the college responsible for someone making poor choices?

[islandguitar]

Interesting discussion!!
As a now retired college admissions director, I've been at the center of these issues for very long while!
Let me introduce several factors into the discussion which I feel are at the center of some of this ..........

First changing demographics. The discussions on this front began many years ago with knowledge and realization that there simply wouldn't be enough students to fill college's classes in future years due to declining birth rates. You can take this back to the 80's and 90's and roll forward from there, although when I started in 1973, this issue was front and center as a predicted challenge even back then.
In home communities, thousands of kids were encouraged to consider taking the SAT or ACT.....many of whom in prior years would have gone into the trades and not attended college, but for the fact that they were encouraged to take that test, "just to see how it would go". Those many additional students were picked up in marketing efforts by colleges who received their scores and made efforts to recruit them as they considered the dire demographic predictions and sent an unfortunate message of "everybody goes to college".....they do not and should not have entered into this false narrative.
Second.....college presidents and boards of trustees.........
I've worked with and for 5 college presidents and known many others. They all read from the same playbook! They want "their" place to be "Harvard" tomorrow!. Most are eyeing their next assignment even as they enter a new position at College X. Rare is the leader who will recognize that some colleges do certain things differently and very well and therefore seek to enhance, rather than change the institution. Complicit in this are too many business leaders who sit on boards and want to make the institution in their own image of what they signed on for in becoming a trustee in the first place. Their decisions and their background on this are often dated, skewed to their own college experience and backed by fund raising/giving that speaks loudly to leadership! The power of these entities descends on the rest of the institution to carry out.....by changing, limiting or expanding, usually with unreasonable timetables, funding,lack of input from the college community and may be capped off by"consultants" who will work on messaging for whoever provides the paycheck. Is it any wonder that we find ourselves in a bit of a crisis generally in higher ed??

Third,Ethics within the ranks are, I'm sad to say, at an all time low. By this I mean, over zealous marketing/PR that can be a flat out lie.........staff who, under pressure may not advise and counsel on the whole picture for families, shading stats to create false pictures of progress for the national magazines like U.S. News. Families also, sometimes willing to deceive and distort their own background in order to gain access or admission.

Fourth, parent/student values have changed/advanced beyond where college cultures and values may currently lie. A fair number of kids going to school now have their own little business enterprises and make significant money and could probably teach an intro course on how they did it! Parents are beginning to understand the value of the first two years and pulling back to two year community colleges to allow for better financial odds and student maturity, or including paying for grad school years, while others are pushing 'name schools" at any cost. Roughly 45% of students who start college will not graduate from that institution.........finances, change of major, burnout, social pressures, initial immaturity, family issues all contribute to more movement than would statistically be present in "normal" times. I think we are currently sorting this out as a nation and will continue to do so as something is clearly ajar with all this as we try to adjust in uncertain and changeable times.

I have many anecdotes of students who were both educated AND trained by way of their college years.........it's an ideal which continues on, yet there is certainly focus on that job training element ........a sign of the times I'd say!
Hope this positively adds into this thread!
Regards,
Fred

[Basalt Beach]

Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy

b. Along the same lines, too many young adults and their parents are sold on the "college experience."

c. College isn't for everyone.

+1 For over a generation, there has been a societal message sent to high school students that their only option after graduating was a four year college degree. Anything less is considered a "second class" career.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by Basalt Beach

+1 For over a generation, there has been a societal message sent to high school students that their only option after graduating was a four year college degree. Anything less is considered a "second class" career.

More broad brush painting but maybe some exceptions.

First, I've been involved with youth programs for about a generation and don't see it painted exactly that way but it is really clear that some careers that require a college degree put better pavement in front of you.

Having split my life between blue collar, trades and college educated systems and security engineer, I can say the former really is second class vs my time in the latter.

Many times I see people who did not make good choices with their area of study just don't make good choices in other parts of life. They didn't figure out you can get exposed to arts and philosophy the same time you can gain skills the world values a lot.

[valleyguy]

Originally Posted by robj144

1) It's too expensive on average. The reasons why are political and I won't say more than that, but it needs to be fixed soon.

I don't think it is political. College loans, and the ease of getting them, has eliminated the need for colleges to control costs, so they continue to increase costs and tuitions with no incentive to stop the increases, just pass it on to students. Make colleges responsible for the loans and collecting them, that's about all I can think of to put a stop to this.