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  #1  
Old 10-20-2018, 08:03 AM
capohk capohk is offline
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Default National El Trovador, Tonedexter and pickups experiments...

Some musings on recent mucking about.

I just purchased a National Resophonic El Trovador. For those who haven't come across this model, it's a wood-bodied biscuit-bridge resonator with a deeper body and a 25.9" scale. I've played around with string gauges and tunings and at the moment I've got it in standard tuning with custom lights on it. In open D it sounds better with lights, which is what it was designed for (by Mike Dowling). It seems to like pretty much anything I throw at it, including some fingerpicking, slide and flatpicking/partial chord strumming.

Anyway...

Next is to amplify it so I can use it in a live band situation.

I have also recently purchased a Tonedexter from James May at Audio Sprockets. He was very helpful in the process and emailed me straight back about a couple of questions I had for which I was grateful. So now to combine the two things.

I guess there are enough Tonedexter specific threads already, but I'll just add that it is as good as it purports to be (in my experience).

Resonators are notoriously tough to amplify accurately. Most of the clips I listened to on YouTube end up sounding too clean, like a pedal steel. The options I've found are K&K biscuit transducer, Highlander IPx Biscuit model (expensive), or the magnetic slimline pickups and the HotPlate.

I've fitted a K&K transducer that I already had and attached it to the base of the biscuit (ie underneath). I've had great success with these SBTs on my other acoustic instruments but this has not been optimal so far. It may be the installation (probably) but the string to string balance is terrible. Basically, the strings directly over the SBT dot are great, the others dead. Screwing down the pickup harder hasn't worked and I'm afraid that any harder will damage it. I wonder if the edge has to be against the saddle for it to pick up the other strings. It just seems a much cleaner install with the wiring going out of the back.

I tried to train the TD using the K&K anyway, wondering if the mic'd input would get mapped onto whatever the strings produced, and even the balance out but clearly, it doesn't work that way.

BTW, the strings that did map properly sounded awesome through the TD wavemap, so I think that this is the fix for resonator live sound that I am after.

So what next?

I think having spent all the cash on the guitar and the TD, the simplest thing to do would be to spring for the Highlander. I wonder if there's an AGF discount somewhere... It is active though, which introduces more complexity into my live set up. One of the reasons I like K&Ks is that there's less to go wrong. My usual acoustic set up is LG2 w/ pure mini>ST200 tuner>RedEye>House. The TD replaces that functionality on its own (the tuner takes a bit of getting used to but it's pretty good after the learning curve).

Given that the K&K picked up the strings directly above it pretty well, I could try a standard 3 dot model and cover two strings each.

For the money, I also wonder if James May is considering a biscuit version of his UltraTonic pickup. It is passive and would obviously work well with the TD.

If you are still reading, I'd be interested to hear any thoughts or experiences you have along these lines.

Cheers
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  #2  
Old 10-20-2018, 02:27 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
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It sounds like the K+K you tried was a single disc? If so, there is no way you could have gotten a good balance of strings.

Or was it the specific Pure Resonator (biscuit) transducer? I don't have a resonator so no experience with that.

I think one of the Tonedexter experience posters, bluesking77 (?) has a resonator that he used with Tonedexter. You might want to search to see what he uses.

I can't imagine there are enough customers for a James May Ultratonic biscuit version, unless a famous player endorsed it. The standard version might work well, and give you feedback suppression, which I've heard can be an issue with resonator guitars.

I agree the Tonedexter is awesome, and it gets even better the more you learn how to use it.
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  #3  
Old 10-20-2018, 05:28 PM
gfirob gfirob is offline
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I have a '32 National Type O, which has a single 9" (I think) cone with a biscuit bridge on the cone. At the advice of my guitar tech, I put K&K mini's (the three small discs) on the top of the biscuit behind the saddle arranged in a little arc, and it works great with the Tonedexter. Since I never tried it without the Tonedexter, I can't speak to that, but it is a great Tonedexter/resonator solution, at least for me. The guitar tech advised against both the K&K biscuit transducer, or Highlander IPx. The K&K mini's seemed an unorthodox approach to me, but this guy has been right before and it worked like a charm. I have played out a number of times with various PA setups with the National and Tonedexter and I thought it sounded great.
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  #4  
Old 10-20-2018, 05:53 PM
capohk capohk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Currie View Post
It sounds like the K+K you tried was a single disc? If so, there is no way you could have gotten a good balance of strings.

Or was it the specific Pure Resonator (biscuit) transducer? I don't have a resonator so no experience with that.
Hi Gordon

Yes, it is the K&K Pure resonator BB version. I'm pretty sure it can be improved by mounting it on the top of the biscuit against the saddle (as intended). I'm just not crazy about the way the wire is visible, has to be routed under the cover plate etc.

I did email Jack at K&K about mounting it underneath the biscuit but he didn't have much to offer:

"This mounting should give similar results but usually requires a more effort and skill so we do not recommend it for most players to attempt. The sound should not be significantly different but may be more to your liking (or not), only trying it will tell which, unfortunately."

In other words, I guess they didn't really know. Kudos to K&K for replying and humouring me...
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  #5  
Old 10-20-2018, 06:07 PM
capohk capohk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gfirob View Post
The K&K mini's seemed an unorthodox approach to me, but this guy has been right before and it worked like a charm. I have played out a number of times with various PA setups with the National and Tonedexter and I thought it sounded great.
Thanks, that's great to hear. I have a JJB 3 disc that I'll try today. I'd be interested to know why your guy didn't recommend the Highlander though.
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Old 10-20-2018, 06:28 PM
gfirob gfirob is offline
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He just thought it was less effective than the K&K solution. And resonator guitars are a special challenge in this regard for sure.
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  #7  
Old 10-20-2018, 09:19 PM
BluesKing777 BluesKing777 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capohk View Post
Some musings on recent mucking about.

I just purchased a National Resophonic El Trovador. For those who haven't come across this model, it's a wood-bodied biscuit-bridge resonator with a deeper body and a 25.9" scale. I've played around with string gauges and tunings and at the moment I've got it in standard tuning with custom lights on it. In open D it sounds better with lights, which is what it was designed for (by Mike Dowling). It seems to like pretty much anything I throw at it, including some fingerpicking, slide and flatpicking/partial chord strumming.

Anyway...

Next is to amplify it so I can use it in a live band situation.

I have also recently purchased a Tonedexter from James May at Audio Sprockets. He was very helpful in the process and emailed me straight back about a couple of questions I had for which I was grateful. So now to combine the two things.

I guess there are enough Tonedexter specific threads already, but I'll just add that it is as good as it purports to be (in my experience).

Resonators are notoriously tough to amplify accurately. Most of the clips I listened to on YouTube end up sounding too clean, like a pedal steel. The options I've found are K&K biscuit transducer, Highlander IPx Biscuit model (expensive), or the magnetic slimline pickups and the HotPlate.

I've fitted a K&K transducer that I already had and attached it to the base of the biscuit (ie underneath). I've had great success with these SBTs on my other acoustic instruments but this has not been optimal so far. It may be the installation (probably) but the string to string balance is terrible. Basically, the strings directly over the SBT dot are great, the others dead. Screwing down the pickup harder hasn't worked and I'm afraid that any harder will damage it. I wonder if the edge has to be against the saddle for it to pick up the other strings. It just seems a much cleaner install with the wiring going out of the back.

I tried to train the TD using the K&K anyway, wondering if the mic'd input would get mapped onto whatever the strings produced, and even the balance out but clearly, it doesn't work that way.

BTW, the strings that did map properly sounded awesome through the TD wavemap, so I think that this is the fix for resonator live sound that I am after.

So what next?

I think having spent all the cash on the guitar and the TD, the simplest thing to do would be to spring for the Highlander. I wonder if there's an AGF discount somewhere... It is active though, which introduces more complexity into my live set up. One of the reasons I like K&Ks is that there's less to go wrong. My usual acoustic set up is LG2 w/ pure mini>ST200 tuner>RedEye>House. The TD replaces that functionality on its own (the tuner takes a bit of getting used to but it's pretty good after the learning curve).

Given that the K&K picked up the strings directly above it pretty well, I could try a standard 3 dot model and cover two strings each.

For the money, I also wonder if James May is considering a biscuit version of his UltraTonic pickup. It is passive and would obviously work well with the TD.

If you are still reading, I'd be interested to hear any thoughts or experiences you have along these lines.

Cheers




You need to forget about the Tonedexter until you get the pickup sorted. Something has gone wrong.... Also- BEWARE THE DRILL.

I see you are in HK so my normal advice of researching the very best resophonic amplification expert to install the best pickup for your style may not be much help. Are resos big in HK? I don't imagine them to be. You need the best tech you can find and hope they don't ruin your beautiful National. So...research.


I have a few Nats and a metal Dobro and it has been a battle all my life - best to use a Shure SM57 on the single cone guitars in a nice PA with the foldback low and greasy!

Next best is a good passive pickup with Tonedexter or even Aura.

I have a National M14, similar to your Trov, and my tech recommended and installed a Schatten resophonic pickup - sticks on the biscuit behind the saddle and a lead runs out to thread through the cone cover. No Drill! Mine came with a vol. control which also sticks on the body. Handy. But I don't think they make this model anymore. Next would be a Fishman passive reso.

Here is a short track I just recorded of the M14 through the Schatten to a Tonedexter file and to mixer/iMac. I didn't EQ it, which hurts a bit, but I wanted you to hear it 'straight'.


https://soundcloud.com/bk7-3/td-m40test777




M14:









(I tried to take a picture of the pickup but camera wouldn't focus on the black strip. But if you look closely at the photo, you can see the pickup bar stuck just behind the saddle on the biscuit. The wire threads out the cover plate.







BluesKing777.
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  #8  
Old 10-21-2018, 06:24 AM
capohk capohk is offline
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Thanks BluesKing. Very much appreciate your input. Nice playing too, sounds pretty good as it is to me. Re the drill, it's too late. It was previously drilled for a jack at 4 o'clock (actually more like 4.35) so I'd like the install to be as clean as possible with that in mind, hence installing the K&K underneath the biscuit, rather than the top side with wires showing etc.

Something to note about these guitars is that they appear to have a catalysed finish which separates from the wood/sealer underneath under pressure. I've seen this on older Taylors too. Frustrating as it's a tough repair. The pressure around the jack has delaminated the upper layer of finish a little. I'm probably less fussy about these things than some, particularly as my guitars see some fairly rough and ready live venues, but I kind of wish that National had used nitro instead - easy to melt in some fresh finish to spot repair. Anyway...

Re the Schatten, they have an R2 here which seems to be similar.

I'll check out the Fishman option too.
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Old 10-21-2018, 06:43 AM
capohk capohk is offline
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Thanks BluesKing. Very much appreciate your input. Nice playing too, sounds pretty good as it is to me. Re the drill, it's too late. It was previously drilled for a jack at 4 o'clock (actually more like 4.35) so I'd like the install to be as clean as possible with that in mind, hence installing the K&K underneath the biscuit, rather than the top side with wires showing etc.

Something to note about these guitars is that they appear to have a catalysed finish which separates from the wood/sealer underneath under pressure. I've seen this on older Taylors too. Frustrating as it's a tough repair. The pressure around the jack has delaminated the upper layer of finish a little. I'm probably less fussy about these things than some, particularly as my guitars see some fairly rough and ready live venues, but I kind of wish that National had used nitro instead - easy to melt in some fresh finish to spot repair. Anyway...

Re the Schatten, they have an R2 here which seems to be similar.

I'll check out the Fishman option too.
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Old 10-21-2018, 01:12 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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I have a Highlander system in two of my single cone Nationals which I really like. One of them has a Flatbucker Magnetic in it too and love blending those too! I also have Highlanders in my Polychrome Tri-cone and my Western D Spider-cone.

For non biscuit style reso pickups I LOVE the Krivo magnetic resonator pickup which can mounted permanently or not with putty. They sound GREAT on everything that I've stuck them too!!!!

https://www.krivopickups.com/store/p..._Guitars..html

Here's me playing one of my single cones with a signal going to the little Fishman PA and my boogie amp from a Flatbucker...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJTOLHiw_Fs

Last edited by rockabilly69; 10-21-2018 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 08:25 PM
capohk capohk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockabilly69 View Post
I have a Highlander system in two of my single cone Nationals which I really like. One of them has a Flatbucker Magnetic in it too and love blending those too! I also have Highlanders in my Polychrome Tri-cone and my Western D Spider-cone.

For non biscuit style reso pickups I LOVE the Krivo magnetic resonator pickup which can mounted permanently or not with putty. They sound GREAT on everything that I've stuck them too!!!!

https://www.krivopickups.com/store/p..._Guitars..html

Here's me playing one of my single cones with a signal going to the little Fishman PA and my boogie amp from a Flatbucker...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJTOLHiw_Fs


Thanks Rockabilly

Sounds great through that Amp. The tonedexter doesn’t work too well with the mag pickups supposedly, but I’ll try those ideas on my 36 Triolian copy for sure.

As I’ve got the extant jack hole in the body already I’m going to route the pickup wire through the cone and out, as in the Highlander installation. I figure I can drill a hole in the biscuit to allow the Schatten to be installed neatly and send the wire though (and try the K&K as it was intended too)

Any other folks with experience of the Schatten NR-2 pickup?

Here’s a mock-up of the JJB Prestige 330 on the back of a biscuit. I am not sure what difference the thickness of the maple biscuit might make to the tone with installation underneath rather than on the top a la @gfirob

Last edited by capohk; 10-21-2018 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 10:06 PM
capohk capohk is offline
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The JJB discs are 20mm and fit just about. They would definitely cover the strings from underneath. I would want to join the wires pretty much immediately so that there was only one wire going through the cone. I figure, the smallest hole would give the least impact on tone, although the biscuit is glued to the cone so I can't imagine the central portion of the cone inside the glue line is sonically significant.

Last edited by capohk; 10-21-2018 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 10:54 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capohk View Post


The JJB discs are 20mm and fit just about. They would definitely cover the strings from underneath. I would want to join the wires pretty much immediately so that there was only one wire going through the cone. I figure, the smallest hole would give the least impact on tone, although the biscuit is glued to the cone so I can't imagine the central portion of the cone inside the glue line is sonically significant.
I own three National single cones and I've never seen them glued to the biscuit, just screwed on mine. They may have changed that though!
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Old 10-22-2018, 05:46 AM
capohk capohk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockabilly69 View Post
I own three National single cones and I've never seen them glued to the biscuit, just screwed on mine. They may have changed that though!
I'm in the process of renovating my Triolian replica - neck reset, change of cone, new nut and saddle. There is very little in the way of resources on the web to help with this compared to standard flat top stuff. What little I've found recommends a thin bead of glue around the edge of the biscuit to make a firm connection. Probably eliminates one source of buzz. There was only one site that walked through the neck reset process. It has worked out fine though.

I'm considering making up three biscuits with three different pickups and seeing which sounds best. I've ordered the Schatten NR-2 as it seems well liked in reviews.
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:35 AM
BluesKing777 BluesKing777 is offline
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Hope you enjoy the Schatten!

I noticed when I was playing the same setup earlier today that I didn’t have much gain on my mixer, hence the ‘thinner’ sound. I wound it up and got a fuller, ‘normal’ sound which, by the way is fantastic with the Tonedexter and fairly awful standard piezo sound without Tonedexter!

Another thing you could try once the pickup is working is to make a wavefile in Tonedexter with a Shure SM57 mic, fave of the old school National guys. After you have owned and operated Tonedexter for a while, you will begin to realise that the mic you like live could be the best for your National Tonedexter file. You can only try it. (I have a SM57 file for my Dobro with a 20 + year old Fishman pickup and it really reminds me of using the 57 live.)

Try all the pickups and mics you want, fairly cheap if you get a great sound you like....compared to plain piezo disappointment.

And, ......... a friend took his Highlander out after problems with its preamp and went back to his stick on Lace humbucker, plus a few drilled holes from the Highlander installation to make him even happier. While the Lace mag pickup won’t work with a Tonedexter wavefile, you can turn that off and use the preamp facilities...eq, gains, DI.


BluesKing777.
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