Fingerstyle from Zero?

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by PeasantDaughter

Hi,

I've only been playing a few months now and poked my head into a half dozen beginner websites and working on chords.

But I'm a little frustrated because I'd really like to work on fingerstyle right away and most courses barely cover this and if they do it is late in the curriculum.

Does anybody know of any online lessons that introduce this right away while learning the chords?

Thanks in advance and much appreciated!

I have an old book which fits your requirements, it's called ' Complete Learn to Play Fingerpicking Guitar Manual' by Brett Duncan.
It starts assuming you know nothing and describes how to hold basic chords with left hand fingerings and pictures of hand possitions then moves on to exercises and picking patterns necessary to train the right hand before moving on to play short pieces from different genres of music, it's a thick book and has enough material to keep you busy for a few years.

[Llewlyn]

Originally Posted by TBman

Yes, someone can learn right hand technique from the start, but to really free the right hand to learn fingerstyle, the left hand has to be on autopilot - and that comes from a firm foundation of chord playing.

That is really not true.

Ll.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Llewlyn

That is really not true.

Ll.

Sure, whatever you say.

[Llewlyn]

Well, I do not mean to throw you under the bus, but you seem to be strongly opinionated on something that is clearly in contrast with facts (eg classical guitar). Other people told you that as well and if I thought that by chiming in I may help OP.

Ll.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Llewlyn

Well, I do not mean to throw you under the bus, but you seem to be strongly opinionated on something that is clearly in contrast with facts (eg classical guitar). Other people told you that as well and if I thought that by chiming in I may help OP.
Ll.

Yes. For me the right (picking) hand is more likely to be on "autopilot" where the left hand requires more moment to moment attention.

[erhino41]

Originally Posted by TBman

That's fine. We all change things to suit ourselves a bit. Picking hand drills can be hampered by a fretting hand that can't get into the right position fast enough. That's why fretting hand development has to be the priority.

This is advice I typically give to beginners. Get the open chord shapes under your fingers while using simple fundamental right hand technique. It's very frustrating learning complex movements with both hands at the same time.

I started playing Dave Matthews songs. Atypical chord shapes and complex rhythmic elements. I could play a bunch of those songs well but couldn't play basic songs in first position because I had no foundational work. I didn't really improve until I took a step back and took this approach.

It's a back and forth, improve the left hand then improve the right hand. As you know, eventually you get to the point where you already know certain elements of a song and are just filling in the gaps or adjusting to taste.

I think most beginners get turned off by the too much, too fast approach.

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by erhino41

I started playing Dave Matthews songs. Atypical chord shapes and complex rhythmic elements. I could play a bunch of those songs well but couldn't play basic songs in first position because I had no foundational work. I didn't really improve until I took a step back and took this approach.

But what if ones musical goals do not include playing basic songs (i.e. strummed chords) in 1st position?

If you were really into Dave Matthews songs, it sounds like jumping right into that style worked out pretty well for you initially. That's a lot harder technically for a beginner than strumming chords to Red River Valley but also a lot more rewarding when you do it.

Of course if at some point you decided your next goal involved moving quickly between open chords at 100bpm (perhaps to play rhythm guitar in a bluegrass jam, etc.) there's going to be a lot of work to learn that technique. But not knowing how to do that didn't really detract from pursuing your intial goal of playing Dave Matthews tunes.

That's the problem with absolutist prescriptions along the lines of "You'll be making a big mistake trying to learn to fingerpick before you learn to strum chords cleanly at 100bpm". There's a certain amount of learning to walk before you can run but strumming chords isn't the only possible jumping off point.

Making music isn't about paying dues by running through scales or chord progressions until your fingers bleed before ever trying to play the music that inspires you.

I had a friend who started playing mandolin about the same time I did. After a few months, he amazed me every time we got together because he had woodshedded until he could do passable chop chords in 3 and 4 chord progressions for all the bluegrass standards cleanly as long as the tempo wasn't too fast. For someone new to music in general, much less to mandolin I was so impressed and I couldn't even start to do that myself.

But then I'd noodle my way through a couple fiddle tune melodies and he'd be blown away. That's what I'd started out doing the first day I picked up a mandolin because that's what I wanted to play. He wanted to play mandolin as a rhythm instrument in bluegrass jams so that's what he did from Day One. I don't think either of us started in the wrong place, given our musical goals.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Yes. For me the right (picking) hand is more likely to be on "autopilot" where the left hand requires more moment to moment attention.

Learning a tune, yes, learning to play a guitar from scratch, no.

[erhino41]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

But what if ones musical goals do not include playing basic songs (i.e. strummed chords) in 1st position?

If you were really into Dave Matthews songs, it sounds like jumping right into that style worked out pretty well for you initially. That's a lot harder technically for a beginner than strumming chords to Red River Valley but also a lot more rewarding when you do it.

Of course if at some point you decided your next goal involved moving quickly between open chords at 100bpm (perhaps to play rhythm guitar in a bluegrass jam, etc.) there's going to be a lot of work to learn that technique. But not knowing how to do that didn't really detract from pursuing your intial goal of playing Dave Matthews tunes.

That's the problem with absolutist prescriptions along the lines of "You'll be making a big mistake trying to learn to fingerpick before you learn to strum chords cleanly at 100bpm". There's a certain amount of learning to walk before you can run but strumming chords isn't the only possible jumping off point.

Making music isn't about paying dues by running through scales or chord progressions until your fingers bleed before ever trying to play the music that inspires you.

I had a friend who started playing mandolin about the same time I did. After a few months, he amazed me every time we got together because he had woodshedded until he could do passable chop chords in 3 and 4 chord progressions for all the bluegrass standards cleanly as long as the tempo wasn't too fast. For someone new to music in general, much less to mandolin I was so impressed and I couldn't even start to do that myself.

But then I'd noodle my way through a couple fiddle tune melodies and he'd be blown away. That's what I'd started out doing the first day I picked up a mandolin because that's what I wanted to play. He wanted to play mandolin as a rhythm instrument in bluegrass jams so that's what he did from Day One. I don't think either of us started in the wrong place, given our musical goals.

I hold nothing as absolute. I only share what worked for me. Any advice I do give is given as a suggestion based on my experiences, not as some sort of prescription or order.

I certainly enjoyed my earliest experiences learning this instrument. It was very rewarding. If I could go back, I would do it the opposite way. I would still take on the same material just later on.

It was more rewarding taking a step back and understand how learning one chord progression opened up many songs as you started to apply different right hand techniques. The things I learned were far more relatable and adaptable to all the other music I wanted to learn.

I don't advocate learning all the first position chords by rote and doing boring and repetetive exercises. It should always be based on what material you will enjoy playing. It was always easier and more productive when I separated the learning process, left hand, right hand.

[reeve21]

Lots of ways to the same destination, apparently!

Personally, I'm glad I learned to strum lots of open position and bar chords before I concentrated on finger picking. I actually did try out finger picking in the beginning and quickly gave up, it was too much to process with my left hand not yet knowing what it was doing.

If someone asked my advice on how to learn to finger pick from scratch I would suggest private lessons with a good classical teacher. Seems like a lot of the best (including my own teacher) got started that way. But if you are going to teach yourself then my advice would be to spend a year or so learning how to hold the thing and make a decent noise before getting into finger picking.

I always thought finger picking was all about the right hand. I was wrong. The left hand gives me more trouble. It takes a while for the right hand to click but once it does it's like riding a bike. And I think it will click faster if your left hand knows how to shift between chord shapes.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Llewlyn

Well, I do not mean to throw you under the bus, but you seem to be strongly opinionated on something that is clearly in contrast with facts (eg classical guitar). Other people told you that as well and if I thought that by chiming in I may help OP.

Ll.

No offense taken.

People can tell me until they are blue in the face what is done in classical guitar and I will continue to say that training the left hand to gain dexterity there first, then working on the right hand later is in the best interest of the person learning guitar for the first time. It may not fit with "tradition" in the classical world, but it certainly makes learning easier and more enjoyable.

Yes, there is no reason why you can't work the right hand later on in the practice session with just open strings to start the learning of dexterity for the right hand, but I would just do it as "back door" training without any pressure or expectation initially.

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by TBman

No offense taken.

People can tell me until they are blue in the face what is done in classical guitar and I will continue to say that training the left hand to gain dexterity there first, then working on the right hand later is in the best interest of the person learning guitar for the first time. It may not fit with "tradition" in the classical world, but it certainly makes learning easier and more enjoyable.

Yes, there is no reason why you can't work the right hand later on in the practice session with just open strings to start the learning of dexterity for the right hand, but I would just do it as "back door" training without any pressure or expectation initially.

Barry,

Was your initial experience with guitar in the context of playing with groups rather than by yourself?

I ask that because a lot of people I've known first played the guitar by strumming chords along with groups of people playing or singing. Once the can handle four or five open chords in first position and do a rudimentary strumming motion with their right hand they can participate in the music making.

I know other people, including myself, who came to guitar as a solo instrument. That's how classical guitar usually starts out. It has a very different order of acquiring skills. Strumming cowboy chords wouldn't have any relevance as all to a novice classical guitar player.

Even when people aren't setting out to play nylon strings and classical music, they still may take that a similar route into the learning process. But I get the sense that seems a strange and backwards way to go about it to people who first came to guitar as a chord/accompaniment instrument rather than a solo performance one.

[RichardN]

Originally Posted by TBman

Stop.

Before anyone jumps into fingerstyle as beginner there is a certain amount of fretboard common sense that comes from learning to play chords and being able to play them with little effort. There is a ton of muscle memory (and dexterity) that gets acquired from the "cowboy" chords and later on from moveable barre chords.

Yes, someone can learn right hand technique from the start, but to really free the right hand to learn fingerstyle, the left hand has to be on autopilot - and that comes from a firm foundation of chord playing.

If someone can't play 4 or 5 chords in a simple 100 bpm strumming tune without making mistakes and hesitating, spending time learning right hand finger style technique is a bit of putting the cart before the horse.

To play finger style so that it is pleasant for others to listen to takes a lot of work even on slow pieces.

This sums up my sentiments exactly. As a beginner you have enough to deal with with the left hand without worrying about the right hand.

Also want to throw in my two cents about teachers. If you work at it you can find a really good teacher that's just right for you. A teacher will help you develop a strong foundation from which you can grow. They will also keep you focused. There's nothing worse than going to a lesson not prepared so you will find time to practice.

[Kerbie]

That poor horse is getting beat to death here. The OP has gotten some wonderful suggestions. Thanks to all and let's keep that as our focus.

[PeasantDaughter]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

But what if ones musical goals do not include playing basic songs (i.e. strummed chords) in 1st position?

...

Making music isn't about paying dues by running through scales or chord progressions until your fingers bleed before ever trying to play the music that inspires you.

So YES. Thank you!